Canadian. Tighten until bolt breaks, then back off a touch. :)

right on all points .. better clamping force is never a bad thing. I throw studs on everything , The price to safety ratio is very good.
Plus what is your time and frustration worth?
I would have shipped those arp bolts back to them with a harshly worded letter a week ago.:D

I think I'm ready.

According to that article didn’t it say happens to studs too ? “Because of the smoother head hole spot facing ?”

I have a couple of clickers and a dial. The clicker I like using is about thirty years old. I have them calibrated every couple of years.

I think you're missing the point or I'm not describing it properly. It may be helpful to read the Engine Labs link because I think it describe the situation really well.

The problem is that I come up on, let's say for practical purposes, 60. It clicks at 60. I think crank the wrench up to 70. I apply the torque needed to get to 70 and it loses it's torque. Meaning, you're pulling on it and then all of a sudden it becomes easy to pull and does not increase in torqued value. Does that make sense? If you real the article at the link, it will explain the torque and friction relationship and how the washer can act like a bearing when it no longer bites the surface of the cylinder head.

When the washer spins, I can get my 11 year old daughter to turn the wrench. The friction is gone.

I think you're right.

If your torquing bolts and they start to turn easier they are stretching. You need to replace them. OR you have bad threads in the block. Bolts can stretch and not look like it. You have to look closely at them. You'll see narrowing of the root diameter in the threads.

502 block,,all holes are blind,gen6 454's were open

The washer is not supposed to move, right? I watched the washer turn. When it turns with the bolt, it acts as a bearing and friction is vastly reduced. I've pulled the bolts and they're not showing any signs of stretch. The one that broke was exactly as you described: thinned and then cracked.

Replacing the entire set did exactly the same thing. It made it to I think 40 then slipped, then grabbed, and I was able to continue. That was a on a couple of bolts but in the end cooperated. I've had the bolts out of the second engine twice with the problem popping up randomly as described above.

Great article, SB and I definitely learned something today. To quote from the article: "ARP showed us that Chrysler is now integrating small pawls or teeth into the outside edge of the head bolt washer where it contacts the cylinder head. These teeth will grip the head and prevent the washer from spinning as the head bolt is tightened, preserving the proper torque."

Maybe the solution could be to use a hammer and punch to create a small knurl effect on the bottom of the washer which will easily bite into an aluminum head?

When you get your studs, don't tighten them in the block. Just finger tight and some people back them out just a little from that. When you torque the nuts, don't do that weird 5lb increment deal. Do three steps, don't concern yourself with the washer spinning. Three steps with lube to final torque. Do a round of 35, a round of 55, then one more to your final torque of 70. With studs the numbers may be different, but I hope you get the idea.

If I'm understanding correctly, you are torqueing to say 60lbs than going back over to 65lbs after? A 5lb increase

When the washer spins and acts as a bearing you apply more torque than you think you are as per the article. But, at some point you will reach your 70lbs the torque wrench shows because you have compressed all the materials as far as they will go.. It may be more than the 50lbs the bolt would get without the bearing acting as a washer, but it's still 70lbs. I am assuming these are 7/16 bolts based on 70lb torque. I have seen way more torque applied to 7/16 bolts than 70lbs without them breaking. something you are doing with your 5lb incremnet is causing the problem you are getting. If you set your torque wrench to 70lbs and it never gets there, you either have a bad set of bolts or the block is hosed.

Please leave the 5# increment out of the mix, it’s not the issue. I only included that info because I was trying get it to stop slipping. Those small increments weren’t doing anything anyway. There’s also nothing wrong with the block, I’m positive on that.

The washer and the bolt are getting hung up. I saw the washer turn with the bolt. It is the same thing as mentioned in the Engine Labs article. I read about it weeks ago and applied ARP’s recommendation to the other engine and with exception of a slip here and there at lower values, it worked as suggested. I applied the fix before getting started on this one and was surprised by the result.

The suggestion of adding a dimple to the washer is a good one. I’m going to back everything off tomorrow morning and try again. It’s possible that having pressure applied over two days may have allowed the washers to dig in a little. If the same issues happen, I’ll pull them again to see what’s up.

More to come.

Were talking about a cast iron block. The threads just might be a little weak. I think head studs would save you a lot of trouble. I had the same problem with a old chev 400 small block a while back.

I’ll be extremely reluctant to continue using bolts in your situation, I would make the switch the studs now before you damage the block. If I am buying fasteners I always make the switch to studs.

great thread BTW, and ur build has been fun to watch

I decided to mess with it this afternoon while my gf was out taking care of errands. I really wish the recovery from the rona was faster. Just breaking the bolts loose took it out of me.

On the even side, number 9 was slipping. In the pic you can see that the washer shows evidence of galling. Compare to number 9 that still shows the sanded surface. In this case I think I had some contamination from the lubricant. I’m going to try a fresh washer to see how it works.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...4c82917ce.jpeg
Number 9, even bank.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...59daf928a.jpeg
Number 1, even bank.

I’ll report back if I’m not dead on the shop floor. Lol

Even side. Got out the new bolts, prepped a set of washers, and went to town. Baseline at 40, then went to 50, 60, and then 70. No slippage.

After I catch my breath, I’ll get the other side cleaned up, prepped and torqued. Hoping for the same results.

Odd side finished up nicely too. Beer thirty!

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys!

Did you go to the heavier grit this last time around in prepping the washers or the same as before?

Glad you got it tightened up!

Going up in 10lb increments is not ideal. Usually the torque will be higher just the break the bolt/stud free. I like 20lb increments. Just my 02

I stuck with the 80 grit.

I’m all over the details usually but in this case the slippage was my own fault. I checked each one that had a problem and found that lube had gotten between the washer and the head. Not a lot, but just enough to cause a problem. I ended up using the other set that I bought, prepped the washers and cleaned, then got it together.

I’ll back them off tomorrow and re-torque per Felpro’s instructions. I’ll measure for pushrods and then that should be it for the long block.

When I hit it again tomorrow, I’ll divide it up equally. It should be good to go then.

Everyone has chimed in with different procedures for applying proper torque to head bolts. I have seen different instructions from aftermarket manufacturers. My way came from Dart and Brodix (but looking at Brodix this morning showed a little different... newer instructions). My Dart instructions were 40 base, then increments of 10 to 70. I think I read that older AFRs were similar. The point is that there are variances among the manufacturers. ARP says three equal steps with their 170k head bolts (so 24, 47, 70). I’ve followed my way for years with aluminum heads and not had any failures. So what’s really the right way?

For ARP tp stay with the times and update their dumb washers :)

On Iron heads I've always done all the bolts down to where they touch plus a 1/8th turn and then 1/3, 2/3's and then the total torque number.
Couple things, pretty sure head gaskets need to be squished all at once. Not let them sit over night at half torque to compress and then go after them again the next day.
Next is the 5lbs at a time...... I'm thinking at least a couple head bolts would pull out of the block doing that by the time I got to my total number.
They are one thing I will not play with in anyway except by the book because I F_IN HATE HEAD BOLTS. Even have a fully stocked Time Sert kit in stock and I haven't built a motor in 3 years and wouldn't even take a set of heads off a block without one.

I was on the fastening team at GM years ago. That was when they started doing a lot more torque angle fastening. It's super repeatable on clamp load. I'll have to see if I still have my book on fastening. Maybe get some info from Felpro and Cometic on recommended clamp loads so we can convert to torque angle to get the right clamp load. I have a contact with one of the automated fastening companies. I'll check with him to see if he has some formulas we can use. Most of the automated stuff I worked on, hit a preload torque paused and then hit it's angular rotation. That was a long time ago, I'm sure it's changed.

I have been pondering this a lot over the past few weeks. So many good things brought up on this topic that affect torque:
Washer spin
dry vs wet torque (as some head bolts need to be sealed on some engines)
thread cleanliness
the initial torque it takes to start turning
etc etc

Then I was looking at the torque specs for a gen VII BBC (496) and it torques to 22 lbs, then does the degree/angle in steps after that. By doing that you've just eliminated all the variables I mentioned above. Goes along with what ThisIsLivin said.

Can the 496 specifications be applied to preview generations? And what about the fasteners? I'm sure that'll make a difference. Would be a great way of getting the heads squared away if this could be figured out.

I don't think you can use the 496 (gen VII) 8.1 specs. That engine has 2 extra head bolts (to help fix the common blown head gasket areas) and the bolts are a 10mm x 1.5 pitch metric bolt in 3 different lengths (103mm, 86mm, 52mm). They actually have a different torque degree/angle for the shortest bolts too. Interesting stuff.

I don't think the previous generations of BBC were metric if memory serves?

Though I don't know much of anything about the 496, I pretty much assumed it was significantly different.

Prior big block Chevy's were not metric.

I guess someone would really have to go through a significant engineering exercise to figure it our for the the previous generations.

I looked and I couldn't find anything on older BBC using torque angle for the heads. With as popular as the BBC is you'd think someone has figured this out by now. Torque angle can be applied to the "one time use" torque to yield (stretch bolts) that the 496 uses, and standard old school bolts too according to what I've read.

Just for kicks, someone should torque all of the bolts down on one head to 50# and then measure the average angle that it takes to get them to click at 80#. I suspect this would be a very good way to torque the head, 50# + xxx deg. With this method, it wouldn't matter if the washer turned or not. I don't happen to have one here in the shop or I would give it a whirl.

For the record, i have torqued every BBC head that I have ever installed at 30#, 60# and final to 80# and have never had an issue with bolts or studs.

That's a good idea Snapmorgan. I think I would use the 496 as a starting point meaning torque all to 22lbs and then go from there.

After doing several heads, you could come up with a good average degrees for each bolt length.

https://www.fixya.com/uploads/images/7b0c7d2.png

The only time I've ever seen a washer spin, after the bolt or stud being torqued, is when the bolt or stud is to long and has bottomed out in the thread before reaching the head.

Automotive Racing Products Tel: (805) 339-2200 1863 Eastman Avenue Fax: (805) 650-0742 Ventura, Ca 93003 www.arp-bolts.com INSTALLATION METHOD FOR HEAD STUD KITS 200,000 PSI 7/16 inch Diameter 1. To ensure proper thread engagement and accurate torque readings, clean ALL threads in the block. Chase if necessary with ARP Thread Chaser. 2. Clean and inspect all hardware prior to installation. Look for obvious defects or shipping damages, plus proper fit, length and dimension. 3. If the cylinder head studs protrude into a water jacket, lubricate the block threads of the studs with ARP THREAD SEALER. 4. Screw studs into the block “HAND TIGHT ONLY”. NOTE: LOCTITE MAY BE USED IF A PERMANENT MOUNTING OF THE STUDS IS PREFERRED. THE FASTENERS, HOWEVER, MUST BE TORQUED PRIOR TO THE LOCTITE SETTING UP. 5. Install the cylinder head(s) and check for binding or misalignment. 6. Lubricate the stud threads, nuts and washers with ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT. Then install the washers and the nuts onto the studs and tighten them hand tight. ARP recommends using the ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT that is provided with each kit as opposed to motor oil. This is due to higher friction on the studs as well as inconsistencies in the clamping force of the fasteners when motor oil or other low quality lubricants are used.