Help with injector replacement Rochester 17090304
 

1997 Volvo Penta setup GiPLKDCE. New long block about 70 hours ago and still thinking I got some injector issues after having them tested by a guy who I think just took my money and did nothing. Long story. Although I never like throwing parts I got enough symptoms to ensure I have a leaking injector and prob another one not firing so well. Since it's a new long block I'd love to have new injectors but couldn't source the right solution when we built the engine.

I"m here because there is another thread that talks about this delphi/rocherster number in regards to 500 EFI and I'm having the worst time cross referencing these plugs. Already bought one set from an online guy who swore he knew what I needed and they didn't even fit properly and he took them back. Now I sea a FleaBay seller out of Illinois with and add that seems to be respectable and written bett3er then then all the junk injector advertisements. I cannot post the link but just search the model number for a listing by a seller named FUEL-INJECTORS with 100% feedback. He's the only advertisement on there other then a refurb set out of Fla for $100 more.

Can someone offer any advice or experience on these and if they cross reference to anything in the auto world for a stock setup...not sure why this is so difficult with so many of these injectors used across so many platforms!

Thanks for any solid advice...even if I don't want to read any bad news!

I would never buy injectors from ebay, amazon other kind of sellers, 100% or not. Never found anyone which can actually rebuild any injector other then older diesel mechanical type. If they pass test after cleaning, all good, otherwise no

which gi motor?
What are your symptoms?

I'm kind of with you on the Ebay/Amazon comment but in two seasons of searching this is the only add I've found that gives me hope. It reads as new injectors and mentions they properly fit although look different with correct specs which nobody to this point has been able to confirm. Every time I get what I believe is good advice (online) I find the next good advice guy conflicting...so it's been a crazy project on these injectors!~

The specific model of the engine even took forever to figure out as there was no OEM plate but someone was able to reverse engineer the engine spec based on the outdrive collar codes I found. It's a: 3857700


When we put the new long block in something was right and we determined one injector was incorrect by moving it around and getting a no fire symptom on a cylinder...the issue followed the injector. Local marine shop had one laying around but wasn't sure why he had it and engine power improved.

• Boat can smell like gas coming off plane or at idle
• Often hard to start after longer runs (20+ minutes)
• Starts perfect from cold
• Sometimes stalls as idle
• Idle can be bumpy especially after a long run and we are idling for 10 minutes to marina
• Repeatedly have check all fuel lines and exterior of injectors for leaks. Can find no leak and NEVER smell fuel inside engine when cold or after long run. It seems to smell coming through intake is my guess. Assumed it was exhaust but never seen fuel in water from I/O exhaust.
• I've seen on a handful of occasions smoke come out of intake after coming when having issue with hard start after hot engine and longer run

Symptoms seems like leaking or faulty injector(s) somewhere based on all the guides I've seen.

FYI the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve was new in the spring too. 7.4 GiPLKDCE and the OEM number for injectors is 3857700

I'm going to include the sellers description just to amuse you guys as I cannot post a link yet. Again, it reads like someone who has done a bit more research then the average crap listing I've seen but I understand the reluctance based on the garbage out there. They want $400 for the set and claim new, bosch and USA made (do they make in USA?)

EDIT: They claim full guarantee so I guess I can send them back if they don't work but I"m sure many have the experience that poor quality ones can work...for awhile!

[/QUOTE]

Brand New Bosch EV-6 Upgrade Performance Set of Injectors Replaces Delphi Marine 17090304.

MADE IN THE USA!

This Set of Upgrade of injectors will perform better than the original Units. They will solve the quality issues inherent in the original design. Original unit common problem include:

• Internal corrosion due to inferior material used in the OE casting.
• Sticking in the open position causing the engine to over fuel.
• Electrical shortages causing total injector failure.

Since the connectors are the exact same as the OE units the flow matched set doesn't require any connector adapters. The 4 orifice nozzle produces a much better spray pattern than the OE injectors. The modern internal design helps prevent these injectors from sticking, which is a common problem with the OE units. They are E85 compatible!!

O-Ring dimensions and the distance from the upper O-Ring and Lower O-Ring are the exact same as the OE injectors. Resistance is 12.5 OMS and is the same as OE.

These injectors have been tested in the field and have produced extraordinary results in overall performance. In addition they solve all OE injector related issues.

Flow rates are as follows:

Our High Performance Replacement:
380cc per minute / 36 Lb/Hr. at 43.5 psi fuel pressure

440cc per minute / 42 Lb./Hr. at 58 psi fuel pressure

[QUOTE]

Seller has 100% feedback over 20 years and 4000-5000 sales I saw. They included a photo of the injector it's replacing which I never see in other listings!

Brand New Bosch EV-6 Upgrade Performance Set of Injectors Replaces Delphi Marine 17090304.

MADE IN THE USA!

This Set of Upgrade of injectors will perform better than the original Units. They will solve the quality issues inherent in the original design. Original unit common problem include:

• Internal corrosion due to inferior material used in the OE casting.
• Sticking in the open position causing the engine to over fuel.
• Electrical shortages causing total injector failure.

Since the connectors are the exact same as the OE units the flow matched set doesn't require any connector adapters. The 4 orifice nozzle produces a much better spray pattern than the OE injectors. The modern internal design helps prevent these injectors from sticking, which is a common problem with the OE units. They are E85 compatible!!

O-Ring dimensions and the distance from the upper O-Ring and Lower O-Ring are the exact same as the OE injectors. Resistance is 12.5 OMS and is the same as OE.

These injectors have been tested in the field and have produced extraordinary results in overall performance. In addition they solve all OE injector related issues.

Flow rates are as follows:

Our High Performance Replacement:
380cc per minute / 36 Lb/Hr. at 43.5 psi fuel pressure

440cc per minute / 42 Lb./Hr. at 58 psi fuel pressure

Those are: L-67 3800 supercharged Bosch 36Lb injectors , they are close but FAR from a perfect match , sometimes they are referred to as a 33.5 lb injector, here is a link that gives some info https://www.injectorplanet.com/produ...55737-24503406
A few years ago someone had purported to have found a "dead match" to the 500 efi injector, I nspent about 1000$ buying close injectors and flowing them against 500 injectors and there is NO dead match. so one day one of my injector customers calls me from maryland, sayd hes got a 500 EFI thats hurt and it has some funny looking injectors different from the other engine, the customer told him they were 500 replacements he had gotten. I offered to flow test them for free as I wanted to see wtf they were. They showed up, I immediately knew they were a Bosch or Bosch copy but someone had went as far as taken a dremel and ground the numbers off each one, my son who works at my business walked by, looked at them and and said "whos got the 3800 L-67". I ran them on my machine against some good used 500 injectors, they were CLOSE but did NOT match, then I ran them against some used L-67 injectors and they had exact same characteristics. There were areas where they flowed MORE, there were areas were they flowed LESS then the 500 efi injectors not talking 1 or 2 %, talking 8, 10, 12+. When Frank got the 500 back together for his customer, he retuned it on the water and found his afr targets were off and it took tuning top to bottom to get it right, I wouldn't buy them , Smitty
and as far as "flow matched", the TRUE way a injector is grouped and "flow matched", the seller buys a high quality injector machine (like my ASNU I use) and a large quantity of injectors then runs them acrossed the machine and discards the low and high ones to create a set that are within +/-1%, most injector sellers throw that word around pretty loosely and unless they are reputable AND charging a premium for their time and the discarded injectors, their blowing smoke, Smitty

First, thanks for everyone responding. For some reason I don't get response notifications from this forum so I'll have to start checking my spam folder.

I'm rather surprised that my run of the mill Volvo Rental Gi engine that prob dials in at 310HP runs the same injectors as the 500EFI but of course I know nothing of intricacies of how these work against the unique tunes vs HP. I figured you guys were needing flows well above 33-36lbs!

So the short answer is nobody sells new OEMs and nobody makes a perfect after market and the only way you guys get around it on your high performance boats is all the custom tuning?

Anyone want to comment on my symptoms pointing to faulty injectors? If so is the best bet just to pull them and find a good trustful injector expert to flow and test them and find out which ones are crap? or are 25 year old injectors all going to be crap?

Thanks for all your time and consideration. I know you all have better things todo but I guess we like to help on forums due our likes.

Update to my own post here...

I did look up the original ebay seller who claimed it's a Bosch EV6 just to see if it compares to the link ArticFriends posted. His mention of 3800 L-67 @ 33.5lbs does seem a bit different then the sellers claim. Since I cannot post a link just google Bosch EV6 and one of the first links is for FiveO Racing and you'll see the injector the seller claims are 36lbs (380cc). They look like the ebay sellers photos.

As much as I hate todo it I think I'm going to order them as he told me if they don't work he will accept returns and he has a 100% rating for 5000+ sales...but I"m sure they can be gamed too. $400 for the set.

I'll report back if my borderline stupidity doesn't work out. I need a solution even if it's almost throwing parts at it.

link to EV6 works now: https://www.fiveo-racing.com/product...nt=36732374339

Humm wonder who that was..........we know who

Would that be J.M. in Dallas? Just askin'.

Is this a throttle body or an injector over every port? I have a pair of Volvo engines. I sent injectors out as part maintenance. These are throttle body. I was told they do not service them and cheaper to buy new. He gave me part number for a GM truck. I put originals back in as it runs fine. It didn’t have time to mess with them.

Withe injectors, there is often variances in advertised description, plus when there flowed on a machine, isoheptane is used, not gasoline and flow yield changes slightly. A L-67 injector is referred to as a 36 lb in most descriptions, some say 33.5 at 3 bar, 36 lb at 4 bar but not most, there wasnt a 33.5 and 36 lb version, they are one and the same fwiw.

Im going to post up another 500 injector comparison thread soon when I have time to load videos and pictures based off some testing data I volunteered to do for a guy from Rochester NY, he was told by a big name, well known injector company that their Lucas 42 lb was "so close" to the merc it would make no difference, I offered to flow and document them for free against 4 good, average, oem 500 injectors. Well, they were 13% high on a static test , if his old AFR was say 12.0 at wot, it would now be in mid 10s, but where real story was was in mid range test that are very similar to running the boat, at 5000 rpms, 12 milliseconds PW they flowed 50+% high and similar at other settings as they have a very robust curve and flow considerably more partially open. I was so curios to see how they did, I did this test for free and Im paying the shipping back. I will extend the same offer to you, since I have 4 good average 500 injectors sorted out, I will at no charge flow 4 of your new ones simultaneously at same time I flow 4 stock ones on my 10,000$ ASNU machine, share the data, pictures, videos, a flow data sheet withe every test ran, then I will pay the sh and insurance back to you if you'd like, im curios myself, Smitty

These ones?
Says 1 year warranty.
Carboncow I'd take Artic up on the offer.
Then return if no hassle if they aren't up to snuff.

the thing the op mentioned of '1 year warranty", sure, that's fine if Ines defective BUT, what people do sometimes forget is that these mefi engines have no self tuning, they are blind speed density, no 02 feedback. If say a injector flows low, is too small, acts up, unless it dies completely , it often melts that piston its supplying. The one safety the engine has, a 1 wire knock sensor, pulls a little timing once it gies lean and starts melting the cyl from the possible knock, it doesnt "save" the motor from being too lean or rich. So say it dies lean it out at a certain rom, pw, etc, the leanest cyl goes poof, boating seasons over, engines coming g out, injectir warranty doesn't cover that. I run every set of injector I sell or install acrossed my.machine for good measure and I have found "bad" ones, smitty

Oh I get that.
I wasn't mentioning the warranty as to imply they're up to snuff or will perform or the warranty guarantees that.
They could have a 50 year warranty, meaningless in my eyes if they don't perform as stated for the application.
Just maybe he could use the "warranty" and return them if they under perform after you run them.

Thanks again guys. Still not getting updates.

Cheech...that is the link
1BigJim: it's individual injectors not TB

So ArticFriend: If I"m understanding you want to flow 4 of the new injectors to see if they stack up?

So the seller got back with me (Ron is the name) and appears to be out of Fairview Heights, Illinois. He said he had sold many of them for my spec w/o issue. I pulled the trigger on ordering them even knowing we all know it's prob to good to be true. If he claims money back guarantee it's better then anything else I've been able to figure out.

Event if the OEM was available the cost would be to much for me. I know you guys play at a higher level then me so I'll roll the dice.

so back to ARticFriend's offer which I think is great. I'm going to have these injectors on Thursday and be installing them up at the lake (Lake Erie) on Friday and I'll know pretty quick if they suck or not. If you want I can send them to you if they don't work if you are still interested in testing them. IF they do seem to work I'll prob keep them in till fall but would be happy to send them to you then if you are still interested in finding out if they are a worthy substitute and/or consistent between injectors. I'd assume you are only interested in testing if I claim they worked for me?

EDIT: Now that I've redigested the posts I'm guessing Arctic is claiming they may "seem" like they are working but flowing in a way to damage the piston. So no way to know unless I test and then pull the and send them off?

Again...thanks to all for helping. Truly appreciated.

I would take artic up on his generous offer BEFORE you install them on the engine and possibly cause damage.

Well the injectors came a day early and he has included his "matched set" chart with it...which I didn't expect because the local guy who said my OEM injectors were fine also didn't do that and I just had to take is word. I've attached the document for your review to tell me what the science all means and if it's BS...or not.

EDIT: numbers/info on injectors reads 0 280 1556(or 8) as well as along the top D 684 006. On the other side they state: 380cc/36#. Photos now attached.

EDIT #2: Ran the numbers at 3 bar. Avg 385.25cc with diff from avg. ranging from -.45% to +.85% with a total different between min. and max of 1.31%.

Thoughts on his data at different pressures and duty cycles?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...9d8d3fbd0.jpeg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...7b2a40e518.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...ca3e4475cb.jpg

Send them to Artic, as already said, before install. Let him prove them out.
Send your old ones also. From what I'm reading you aren't sure it is an injector anyhow.
Did the local guys test come back all of them good?
A day to him, he test one day, a day back to you.

IMO anyone could of laser marked the 380cc/36#.
But the molded in number side that does appear to be a Bosch symbol.

The local guy owns an auto and marine parts and machine shop with a good reputation...but he's a character. He supplied me with a bunch of theories about my V/P engine because there were no manufactore plates on the block. He had me going in one direction. We talked about some issues I had post new long block and he would test the injectors at the end of the season and I would grab them in the spring. Well spring came around and he could not find them. When he did find them he said they were "fine" but proved no data which I was not happy with for $150 because all the other guys online said any good injector guy would provide a sheet from the flow/pop tests. They were just all thrown in a oily bag like I gave him. No confidence. Then it was proven by another online guy with great info that this local guy had no idea what he was talking about with my engine option designation because we reverse engineered the engine from the outdrive collar.

So long story short...I don't trust the guy who tested them up on Lake Erie and my symptoms are all mentioned above and those symptoms fall in line with every other online guide I've read on what bad and leaky injectors act like. He did claim that his machine didn't have print outs. At 25+ years old it sure should like a good idea to get new ones...but who would have guessed I could have found injectors for the space shuttle quicker then for a run-of-the-mill Volvo Penta 7.4 Gi engine.

I'll prob get with Arctic on how quick we can do a turn around on both sets. I'm going to do an oil change tomorrow and make sure my current injectors are not dumping fuel into the oil and then I'll assess how long I can do without the OEM injectors too.

I see Arctic is in Frankenmuth and thus only 2 hours away from our place on the western basin of Lake Erie. I could always run them up or down to move things quickly.

Im sure they are close, at static they will most likely be within 98%, its the part throttle settings where they may flow low or high. I bought 33, 34, 36 38 and 40 lb injectors from varios suppliers at one point trying to find a "match " to the oe injectors and although the 36 lbs were almost identical to the oes at static (100% flow, fully energized) they had different characteristics, flow rates at various rpms and settings that didnt match the oes. At that time I did NOT test the exact injectors you just purchased. Panther Geronimo, a member on here, was fixing a hurt 500 efi, melted a piston in hottest cylinder and sent me the injectors, although the injectors had some stuff carefully ground off them, a search on remaining numbers matched 36 lb Bosch automotive injectors, when I flow tested them against some average oe 500 injectors, they flowed a little different and did not match . When FU marine tuned this oin water, it needed some more fuel added to the tune in some ares and if I remember right some pulled out.
so my offer to you is at no charge I will flow and test 4 of them simultaneously against oems and give you the real world answer, it would be greta if they match close enough to be a viable injector to use as a replacement. I will also pay the return sh, etc and do it expediently. I see your near lake erie, would be a jaunt but I would even be willing to do it while you wait if you drive up.

I would grab the injectors and hop in the truck! Two hour drive is nothing.

Padraig

Damn !!!!
I’d be leavin’ like this. :)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...ee6ee29711.gif

I just typed a long post and its gone, damn.
heres condensed version of what I just wrote being nit disappeared:
a stock 500 tune has the voltage offset /aka latency or deadband at the FOLLOWING: (3bar)
10v-.954 MS yours 2.46
11v-.687 yours 2.0345
12v .504 yours 1.799
13v. .351 yours 1.516
14v. .252 yours 1.251
Thats ALOT of ms thats NOT going to be added for injector deadband/latency vs what it calls for, that wont really show on my injector machine either but basically needs 1+ms added in background at 13v to equal the oes assuming they flowed equal, Smitty
I typed this out in much greater detail and its gone, will add to it later but got to get back to work

So now that Im sitting here at computer eating lunch, Ill explain this latency/voltage bias a little better:
"What is injector off time?
It is the amount of time between the point where the ECU told the injector to open and then told it to close, where the injector was not actually open or was not flowing at its peak flow"
So, how this applys when somone changes injectors on a efi motor is THIS: If PW/ms (the amount of time ecm commands injector to be open, or time is triggers) it is say 1.5 milliseconds at 1500, 3 ms at 2000, 4.5 ms at 3500, 6.5 ms at 4200, 8.5 ms at 5000 etc. So, with the stock 500 tune, in background it ADDS .351 ms to that 8.5 at 5000 for example. The voltage bias offset on the bosches needs 1.516 , so the injector will flow like its got 7.3 ms instead of 8.5 since offset is still at .351, NOT 1.516. Mercruiser notoriously runs there tunes fat so most likely it will be ok , this is also assuming both injectrors actually flow equally at the same ms, maybe the bosches flow more , fwiw, Smitty

Watching to see the results, very interested in the outcome.

WOw...just like Arctic I was logged in and wrote an extensive follow up and it was gone once I hit reply. Back button resulted in my text not being there...I don't have the patience to retype at the moment but stay tuned for a very positive write up from my experience. Hopefully I'll get it done tonight or Saturday. How's that teaser?

OK, gang. Let's try this again. I"m going to copy my own post before I hit the Post button this time!

Thanks again for everyone commenting and helping...learned a lot. So I didn't want any downtime with the boat and didn't bug Arctic about driveby so I called my old buddy (old school) boat mechanic across the bay. He doesn't help me any more since we are a few miles apart. Of course he told me just to slap those new injectors in and run them but I told him your comments and he said he did have an "injector guy". My mechanic buddy is an Off Shore guy and current has a 70s Cig but again...a carb guy. I don’t think he has much injector experience beyond what his computers tell him.

So we got my new injectors to his injector guy and he checked them over night against the "matched set" spec sheet that the seller gave me as seen above. The injector guy said they were good but didn't provide me any output of his tests. I had to just take his word from him and he was talking through my mechanic buddy. The consensus between those two was not to overthink the project since I'm not running high performance boat…run them. They appear to be bosche and spec’d to my need.

So the new injectors went in and the boat is running sooooooo much better. I now have a smooth ideal, never stalls coming off planeand lower RPM feel like they are firing better as well as smoother feel to the engine at my cruising 2800-3200 RPMs.

I do still get a fuel smell every now and then at idle (often in the channel) that my wife doesn't smell but the kid does. I've checked all fuel lines, pumps, resouvour and I can physically see the injectors under the intake...nothing is leaking. Never a smell when the boat is sitting or prior to starting cold (or hot). It's either coming from the intake or exhaust while underway. I have wild theory what could be happening but won't hijack my own thread but maybe start another. Atleast once on the first day of the injectors there was a hard start after a 1 hour run and then letting the engine cool for an hour. By that I mean it doesn't start instantly but maybe took 5-7 sec for the engine to burn off some fuel in the intake...?

I still have a project next time I'm at the lake to change the oil and inspect for fuel. Level is right at the high level mark when cold and DOES NOT smell of fuel.

So...

I've been amazed that several of your high performance needs might be the same lowly injectors on my 7.4 Volvo Penta Gi engine prob at 310-330hp but if you have needs for the delphi/rochester 17090304 injectors that I had trouble finding for two boating seasons I can report that my eBay injectors have worked out just fine for two weekends and 10 hours of run time. The seller is out of Chicago and someone ago above posed his link. He was quick to answer and provided (as mentioned) an output test sheet of a matched set for $399

If there is any interest I'd be happy to pay Arctic at the end of the season to test out these injectors to see if they are holding up to the claim or if they have other testable values best suited for your high performance needs.

-Shawn
Lake Erie

Definitely interest as smitty (arcticfriends) gives lots of good data vs ‘they are good. Here !’

Thanks again. With the kid going back to school and the wife in a new career my time is getting jammed up. Pulling the injectors for me is just enough a PIA job I do dread it to...although I've done it 5-6 times! With that all said I'll bug you late in the season for sure but doubt I'll pull then soon. I did look your address somewhere. Looks like the shop might be out of your home area and it was just far enough a drive I wasn't feeling the need to bug you...so let's play with them late in the fall. Boat is coming out earlier then usual for another project at the end of this season. Stay tuned.

Carbon,

An interesting read, if you haven't already.

496HO Down On Power

Send them to Smitty. Trust me.

Thanks. Brad.
(937)545

Just get ahold of me at end of the season, Id love to see the flow characteristics, Smitty