Reprogramming EFI Computer MEFI3
 

Has anyone out there ever tried to reprogram the Merc EFI computers thereself? I know that Arizona, Whipple, and several others will do it for $300 a pop but has any amature ever been able to try?

My current project will require reprogramming of the ECU and my dad is an electrical engineer and he has reprogramed the ECUs off of LT1 car engines before. He seems to think that people have done it before and would like to learn. So would I.

Anybody?

Ron

That would be a great thing to do by ourselves. But, I think that we would have better luck finding the holy grail than getting that kind of information regarding re-programming.

Just pay the $300. If you make a mistake it likely to cost you more than that.:cool:

My opinion, but having an ecm reprogrammed without having the actual engine on a dyno to verify proper fuel and spark curves is the recipe for disaster. If you are serious about performance, longevity and what this industry gets beat up most for ---RELIABILITY, spend the money and get it done right. Do all you can yourself if thats what you like to do, but spend the $$$$ when it makes sense.

Prime example - bolt on any supercharger you want - no or minimal changes required - countless unhappy and disgruntled results. 7 years later now that one of these companies has the ability to do the triple nickel they say ECM reprogramming is a must. Whats changed? Only their ability to do it. They've known this all along as well as most quality shops. If it wasn't important, they wouldn't have spent the cash to aquire it.

A N/A engine is no different, you change the air or fuel flow, the computer is not capable of making the changes on its own, it needs to be programmed and without first understanding and knowing how and why the system does what it does and having the software to identify and change the parameters, its a crapshoot.

To my knowledge there are really only a half a dozen people in the country that have the software to do this. It costs anywhere from $1000 on up to have it done on a dyno. Its not about exhaust temps, its about A/F ratios and timing.

Yes its a considerable amount of money, but miniscual compared to having all the work you just completed turned into scrap. You can also avoid downtime in the middle of the boating season and having to face your cignificant other and tell them that you need to double or triple what you just spent in order to just get back boating again, not to mention without any benefit other than what you just learned.

If you are going to spend money on performance, spend enough to do it right. Yes EFI is nice, but its also expensive. If you can't afford it, carburetors have been known to make more than adequate HP to brake any Bravo out there.

Sorry about the rant, but I don't like to see people spend money on their passion only to have their candles blown out.

Rod

RPM,

I think what you're saying is right on !! But how can somebody like me living in Orlando, FL get someone to properly tune the ECU? I've read messages where people have mentioned "flying in someone qualified" to do the job. Who would this be?

Ric232, my opinion again is that the engine needs to get put on a dyno to be mapped and then tweaked in the boat if necessary. There is at least one company in south FL that has this ability. The only company I know that really advertises reprogramming ECM's without the engine is ASM. The others that I know that reprogram will only do so if they do the work entirely. I am in complete agreement with that policy. No fingerpointing in the event of a failure. Hard to justify legal expenses and bad publicity for a $300 fee with no control of the actual end product. IE....installation, rigging, performance verification, testing, etc.

Rod

So what does that leave us? Buy turnkey products? There are a few but they are expensive and you pay for that expertise.
Pfaff-598CID-N/A-800hp
GTMarine-540CID-whipple-740hp
Eichert-572CID-S/C-700hp

Or go to aftermarket programmable EFI computers with fuel and timing control without O2 sensor or mass air flow meter

Of course to tune you need a wide band O2 sensor and a dyno.

I am with RPM on this one. ECU re-mapping should only be done on a dyno where the results can be noted and adjusted properly. There have been too many horror stories posted here about this problem. I feel that stock Mercruiser EFI motors can be modified SLIGHTLY ( exhaust, flame arrestor, adjustable regulator) without too much to worry about, but after that it is up to being lucky with the re-mapped ECU.

RPM,

I would like to get a few things staghit, we've been reprogramming ECU's for some time now, we're one of the only SC companies that have always took an advanced approach to the EFI fuel systems.. When we couldn't reprogram ECU"s, we included a piggy back system which is the same as we do in the automotive field to pass 2003 ULEV emissions standards. You act like we've changed now that we have the rights to the 555 when I've stated many times that it's incredible that anybody out there can sale a product without some EFI change. All our systems come with reprogramming and or/piggy back systems. I guarantee, not one aftermarket performance company out there that has the tools and equipment for proper engine/calibration development when compared to us. Have we ever said reprogramming is not needed, just bolt this on and go? Never, you can't run our marine systems without! I think you need to make your statements much more clear and get your facts straghit.

We won't do complete custom cals in most cases because you can not charge a customer enough to be able to have any liability towards it. Dyno is only one small facet of the equation.

We deal with OEM level calibrations and projects, and the only reciepe for disaster is unqualified people working at a level they should not. If you have a production engine, and you have a base cal for that engine that you've tested, slight mods are easy to make. It's impossible to tune an entire engine without being there or having the proper software/tools for self calibration. Everything has to be tested at one time, but not everytime when things are kept the same. Do you think OEM custom cals every engine? You think marine might be tough, but it's simple in comparison to passing 50-state emissions standards.

Dustin

Sadly and Honestly, not much in the way of EFI. If you want to use Mercury products you need to get hooked up with someone that will do it for you. The aftermarket systems used by some builders is available to all, but even more expensive than Merc by the time you buy all the components and computers required to set a system up.

We've looked at using EFI Technologies, Haltech, Speedpro, Mototron and others, but the general public will never pay what it costs to purchase these systems on top of the cost of a custom engine that will make within 10% of the numbers of an EFI system for 4-10 times the cost of carb and distributor.

I agree with you, if you don't know what your A/F ratios are, you are guessing and hoping you got it right. Its a numbers game, yes some people will be lucky, most are not. When was the last time you saw a post from someone that did this and was happy with the results and would do it again?

My recommendation to the guys that are capable of and like doing it themselves is to work within their realm of knowledge and ability.

My point was simply that if you buy a bunch of parts from a bunch of different people because they said they were experts, put it together and expect a pre-programmed computer for and entirely different set of parameters to understand what you did and react to it accordingly is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

I like to go fast and see others go fast or I wouldn't do what I do for a living. I just hate to see people spend their money and end up badmouthing the performance market because what they did didn't work and then scream that us shops are raping them when it gets brought to us after the damage has already been done and we need to start over.

Going fast in a boat is not cheap and if you don't do it safely and reliably its even worse.

Sometimes reality just sucks!



Rod

Easy Dustin, this was not directed at what Whipple does now or has ever done or I would have said so. I'm pretty sure my facts are straight and would be happy to discuss them with you if you have any specific questions regarding anything I have said.

I think my only point that you may feel was directed at you was reprogramming is required and that is why you do it. I commend you for doing so and your comments support this premise. I concur on most counts, especially custom reprogramming when you don't have the engine to calibrate on.

Rod

I am just a little guy here. I don't and will never claim to know as much as either Rod or Dustin does on this subject. But I do know what it feels like to be a performance boater with an EFI engine. I would love to be able to get more power out of my motor. But, the thought of me coming up with an engine combination that I feel would make more power and then to forward that information to a re-mapper only to hope that he gets the programmming correct, is something I will NEVER do. The cost of doing it right, such as sending the entire motor to a shop equipped with a dyno and re-mapping equipment, such as Rods' is a little too expensive for the amount of return you can get.
I have been wondering why a shop such as Rods' or Dustins' has not come up with a bolt on kit to modify these stock Merc. motors. Such as a simple and achievable 100 hp kit. The stock Merc. motors are a known constant. We all know what is in them. Why can't a combination be sold as a complete kit, say maybe cam, springs, injectors, either we send you our heads for porting, or you send us information on flow numbers so we can port locally, along with the most important part, a properly calibrated re-mapped e.c.u. for the given combination?? You guys are equipped to come up with a bolt on combination that what do just that.
Am I behind the 8 ball, does a kit like this exist already? Or maybe I came up with a money making idea?

I believe Dustin has that subject covered with the new 496's and is offering an upgrade kit and I would guess that if they have the software to do MEFI I and III they will soon be offering upgrades for 454/502's as well.

As for us, yes we offer upgrade kits and will guarantee that they'll make the advertised HP assuming the shortblock is up to the task. Fact is, most of the time its not. Secondly, their honestly is not enough money selling just the kit to justify the liability.

Tell me how anyone wins in this scenario? I sell you (Mr. Customer from Timbuckto) a 502 upgrade kit, which by the way requires CMI exhaust no exceptions. Oh, we already have a problem, you want to use Gils or EMI's, IMCO's or whatever, everyone says that they are good to a gazillion HP. Guess what, you changed a parameter that I can't control that affects the computer we just programmed. You call me screamin your a$$ off that your first Poker Run is tomorrow and it doesn't seem to run right and want to know if its ok to run it anyhow, you'll just take it easy. I say NO! You go anyhow and over the next week because I feel bad come out to evaluate your scenario at my cost under the agreement that if its your fault you will reimburse me my travel expenses and some agreed upon free to cover the possible losses at the shop because I'm out helping you. I get there and find, exhuast leaks, a cam that was not degreed and an o-ring out of place on one of the injectors or worse yet not plugged in. How many hours will it take me to find and fix these issues in Timbuckto? Multiply that times $75.00/hr - my shop rate. Ok, now that we've fixed those issues and it still doesn't seem to run right. Tests show #6 is low on compression and leaks down in the 60% range. Guess what happened, thats right melted down #6 and the balance of the engine leaks down in the 25-30% range - going through rings and should have been freshened. You thought the engine was ok, it running just fine before you made any changes, must be my fault.

OK one full day = $750 labor, $125 for an O-ring kit, $500 for airfare and $75 for hotel totals $1450.00 + who knows what

You decide that you can't pay me and get your engine fixed at the same time, we both know what gets done next. Hell, I'm 1000 miles from Timbuckto.

Now whats it cost to get it back together, not to mention its now boating season?

This was the long way of saying exactly what Dustin did, too much liability for minimal profit.

Rod

I know that if a kit like this existed, I could follow your installation instructions correctly. As could many members of this board. But I also know that you are right about the liability factor. The lower end of the motor must be 100%. I have first hand experience that some peoples claims are not true at all. Or they simply don't know any better. I see your point of too many variables. Such as Mr Customers ability, the condition of his motor, the installation of the parts to be just a few reasons for not getting involved in this type of upgrade. It sounded good from where I am, but it's a different perspective in your seat.

454checkmate, we have come up with a power package, it's called the supercharger system. Everyone thinks they can make all this power naturally aspirated for low bucks, and the fact is, with today's EFI, you cannot unless you can do the work yourself and everything works out perfectly the first try. I laugh when I see Rods example, because it's happenned to all of us, although we typically only play with the supercharged ones. We use to do custom mapping for guys who changed cams with their SC, heads, etc. and they had them in advanced 4 degrees, motor would not stop detonating, bring it with bad ignition, wrong plugs, valves to tight, bad injectors, faulty grounds, plugged filters, bad wiring, etc. We would always become "married" to them. I understand you might do exactly what we ask, but thats only one person. As Rod said, some want to use Gils, EMI's, etc. because everybody says they make gazillion hp. Then when it doesn't perform like someone expected or has problems, were the ones to be blamed. One thing others don't relize, mods really depend on the sophistication and programming of the ECU. The smarter the ECU is, the more reads and calculations it's doing (as long as it's programmed correctly). This is for more precise control, yet it can also be worse if its not done right or has changed. MEFI 1 equipped motors were much easier to modify because they were very basic and crude, got the job done but had a large margin for variance.

If you want power, to stay with your Mercury EFI, I obviously recommend a supercharger system because it's by far the biggest bang for your buck. Mercury is not going to warranty any performance item from an aftermarket source, so whether you change cams, rockers or a supercharger, your in a new area thats not warrantied. But this opens another can of worms, do your homework, as everybody agrees, ECU's need to be modified. Especially when you change major things like operating temps, air inlet temps, manifold pressures, etc. Those who claim you don't need any mods have to raise some eyebrows.

Rod, we've been reprogramming MEFI 1 and 3 for over some time and are very knowledgable with the system. Your statement "7 years later now that one of these companies has the ability to do the triple nickel they say ECM reprogramming is a must. Whats changed? Only their ability to do it." is what bothered me. Obviously, since were exclusive, your refering to us. This is saying that now that we have the ability, we do it and say it's a must, leaving one to gather that before we didn't have the ability and didn't say it was necessary. Which just so happens to be the opposite of the truth. We are not working and will not work on any performance packages for the 454/502 Mag engines with MEFI 1 or 3's.

Thanks,
Dustin

Dustin I've been contemplating (in fact one or two others as well locally) pursuing the whipple stage-I package for the 496HO. No not looking to create a super demon, just a tad bit more juice to push each of us the extra 1-2mph to break our respective barriers ie. 70 & 80 mph. What exactly "is" the hi-perf programming and what does it change, and how does the low temp thermostat assist? I understand the arrester...Finally, if we each buy how long is the turnaround time for the computer and how simple is this to do in the driveway without creating a crow's nest of wires?...

Reckless288,

We reprogram the spark curves, increase coil energy, tune per cylinder to get the most optimizied air fuel in all cylinders, etc. The colder stat increases the density of the air in the cylinder. The cooler the air, the denser it gets. Theres a point naturally aspirated where it can be too cold, but thats not a issue in this application. Example, the boat runs better in the winter than it does in the summer, hot vs. cold. That is because the air is more dense, same principal when dealing with engine temp. Were not talking huge numbers, but enough when combined with more spark, etc.

And there are no wiring chagnes, just plug back the ECU and go.

Thanks,
Dustin

Blower motor programming, etc
 

Friends,

Seems most folks on this thread want a couple of things:

#1: Make the system easy to use
#2. Make it widely available
#3. Make it as inexpensive as possible.
#4 Make it "serviceable" by as many outlets as possible.

Unfortunately the high performance marine market is a teeny weeny market when compared to cars. For example if Ford wants to change something in the Mustang, they spread the coat over say 250,000 vehicles. A one million dollar R&D program becomes only $4 per vehicle.

The total high perfomance aftermarket for marine blower users is probably less than 500 per year?? Hence the high cost per unit for R&D.

I run a triple engine Black Thunder with three of Dustins current blowers on them. After some early calibration issues, they'
ve been running flawlessly for over 100 hours. Most of that is long cruising at 3500 to 4000 RPM for 2 to 4 hour intervals. To achieve this consistency, we put all three on a dyno at Chief Engines and FAXED Dustin our dyno runs. He in turn programmed ECM's to meet our needs and we went thru about 3 variations in 3 days to achieve the standard we were seeking. Total cost was $500 per engine for dyno time and about 300 in UPS costs.

To me, it is worth that relatively small investment for reliability. If you're spending $20,000 plus (in some cases wayyyy plus)on a blower engine, you're talking less than 5% of the total price for this kind of calibration.

Alternativley Holley makes a system for blower motors that certain shops, such as Cheif have programmign for. You can either ship your engine there or drive it there, and have Tommy program your system on his dyno. Again cost (exlcuding your time and shipping) will be less than $1,000. As a result you'll have an injected/blower system programmed exactly for your application. As long as you don't change internals and ignition systems, once programmed you're set for the life of that engine and any future engine with the same components.

I noted Dustin and Chief, (Tom Hofstetter) and that's because I have nothing but good experience with both of them. They kept their word, quoted reasonable prcies, and stand behind their work and products. I'm sure there are others out there, and I dont mean to exclude them, I just prefer to speak from personal experience. I would also note that Rod at RPM has offered excellent advice to me on the phone and was a sincere gentleman.

If any of you are ever in the South Florida area, and you're considering adding a Whipple system, give me a call and we'll take out my boat and you can see first hand how the Whipple system runs.

Sorry for the long response.

Steve