Brad,
Maybe add a nitrous oxide fogger system to address the IAT. Just kidding, glad to see you back on the water!
Rob

I saw a show on engine masters where they were looking at IAT,they basically said it didn't matter to power,and were at 165-170°.just food for thought

Rob,

The tuner did ask about the possibility of swapping to an M2 ProCharger. He said we are beyond the efficiency curve of the M1. He's never seen an M1 on a big block. I'd say the reason ProCharger went with the M1 instead of the M2 is because the hypereutectic pistons would not have survived it. We might explore a bigger intercooler, though. Down-road goals..... :rolleyes:

Thanks. Brad.

Guys,

I found what I hope is the only coolant leak. The connecter hose between the reservoir and the heat exchanger was just "in place", and the hose clamps were not tight at all. That would be on me. I was the one who made that connection one evening when I was at the dealership "helping", and, apparently, I neglected to tighten them up. Fingers crossed it's the only one.

Looking for raw water leaks, I didn't come across and significantly loose connections. My suspect is the wire-wrapped wet exhaust hose I'm using to couple the exhaust risers to the tips. There are four; two per side. I called a local rubber and hose supplier, and they said they had "wet exhaust" hose, so I went up to get it. When I got there, all they had was the wire-wrapped stuff. So, I bought it. Upon the first fire, I noticed they were leaking. So, I tightened them. Like, a LOT. The next time I fired it up, the two closest to the tips were still leaking, but I didn't see any from the two closest to the elbows. So, I went elsewhere and got a section of the soft-sided stuff, along with two of the band-style hose clamps. The next time I fired it up, I didn't see any leaks. But now that we are getting full water supply (not from a hose), I am seeing evidence of leaks. I've heard/read that the wire-wrapped stuff can be difficult to get to seal well. Should I just go ahead and replace the remaining sections of wire-wrapped hose with the soft-sided stuff? And maybe go with a full complement of the band-style clamps?

Thanks. Brad.

Had had the same issue with my stainless marine exhaust. Couldn't get the wire hose to seal 100% with two clamps on each end. Switched it to the soft wall hose with no wire and it hasn't been an issue. I'd swap it and go boating.

Where can i find a fuel rail?

will the 8.8 fuel rail fit 8.1?

Definitely agree on the double hose clamps.. Not just to stop leaks but also piece of mind.
If you still have a leak with 2 clamps.. you could also try putting some bellows adhesive or permatex #3 on the sealing surface.

AShipShow,

It had double hose clamps from PQ (assuming), and I replicated that when I put it back together, but I suspect the worm gear style hose clamps just aren't cutting it against the wire-wound hose. I may invest in six more of the T-bolt style and just have one per joint, as they are about an inch wide, distribute the load far more evenly, and provide WAY more clamping force. I think that will seal them more than enough with the soft-sided hose.

Thanks. Brad.

Yep, the t-bolt clamps are one of those buy once-cry once things. They are well worth the cost.

DrFeelgood,

Agreed. And that’s always kinda been my MO on most things. Plus, I think I can get away with just eight of them, since they are so much more positive of a clamp and considerably wider than the worm gear type. At ~$15 each, that’s not that much for a “forever fix”.

Thanks. Brad.

I've had no issue with sealing wire supported hose with worm clamps. I typicaly use T-clamps, but have had them shear off on me.

The key here is just preiodic inspection...and the "2 is 1, and 1 is none" method.

Tartilla,

The worm style clamps I have now are looking like they are about to shear out completely. The "tails" are kicked off to one side. I'm thinking they are already broken on one side inside the screw housing; at least a couple of them.

You really think two are necessary with the T-bolt style clamp?

Thanks. Brad.

When I changed to silicone exhaust hoses and t-bolt clamps on my Sunsation, I double t-bolt clamped both ends of the hoses. 16 clamps cost me a few bucks, but good peace of mind... think about how much water can get dumped in the bilge while running, if a hose were to come loose.

T-bolt clamps are a great clamp. Look and feel good. But they still fail as well.

Two is one and one is none...is from explosive redundancy drills. But I like to apply it with 'cannot have it fail' type problems.

Less reduncancy means increased inspection frequency.

I've found that when we expect something to not fail, Mr. Murphy comes along for a visit soon after.

DrFeelgood, Tartilla,

You're not wrong. Right now, availability is making the decisions. My local option has two on hand. they can get more, but that's what I've got. I haven't actually gone and picked them up yet. They are a two hour round trip away. My plan is to replace the hose with the soft-side stuff and move forward with the worm-gear clamps for now, then replace them with T-bolt clamps as they become available. I'll prolly order them from Amazon, as they appear to be the same brand my local option has, and I can get them all at once.

Thanks. Brad.

so in my personal experience dynoing things to the "limit" of a given octane, usually around here on 93, IAT much above 120 pushes alot of stuff into detonation, same with afrs. Heres a example : I had a whippled 509 on dyno with tailpipe afrs around 11.5 in what I call "hard boost", 8, 9 psi. Was making around 800 hp, similar tq. This engine was leaving and going quite a distance away which makes in boat tuning more difficult so since mefi is blind speed density and thats what it had, I usually tiune at 50 to 60 psi and tune idle, part throttle slightly rich. This allows owner to make a "global" change in boat by simply lowering fuel pressure IF it becomes richer in boat which often happens. so I was about done tuning and reviewed my fuel pressure which was only at 40 psi, I had meant to increse it earlier and hadn't. So I increased fuel pressure to 55 from 40, about "1 bar", that usually increases fuel flow 12.5% on a typical injector. So I mathematically re-scalled the whole tune, when I repulled it the tailpipe afrs were NOT at the 11.5 but closer to 12.0, 12.2. I had pulled TOO much out trying to account for dead band/injector latency. This engine previously had not one hint of KR, at 12,0, 12.2 it not only had 2-3 degrees of KR but IF I stayed in it, it went into knock hysteresis and had to pull 7 or 8 degrees. So I worked on the tune to get afrs BACK where they were with new fuel pressure. At 11.7, 11.8 the KR was gone, I like to have a ;little safety margin so getting it back to 11.5 gave me a little safety factor. This last quip was sorta in response to a phone call from brad while tuning the other day.
IAT: I have also seen where at 140, 150 IAT where I started seeing KR on a long pull. I often use a 45 gallon supply of water and a circ pump when supply water to a innercooler, I try to temper water to a temp close to what customer would see, ie, he lives where waters 85 degrees vs 70, and will blend in water to hold that innercooler supply temp. I have done back to back pulls and allowed supply temp to reach point the IAT at intake was getting in that 140, 150 range and started picking up kr so I like to see no more then 130. In automotive world with a air to air innercooler those IATS are almost un-obtainable so much more timing is pulled and fuel added.
So If I were you brad I would say in yoiur holley to pull 1 degree at 130 and progress from there exponentially since you dont have a working knock sensor. You can also use a fuel modifier table to start adding PW vs IAT after 130 since its so easy to do in a holley. By 180 Id be adding 15% and pulling at least 8 degrees of timing in case your flow to innercooler has a issue, to point boat will start slowing down where you notice and it will protect it from detonation. The ability to quickly and easily build "saftety" into your iat and ECT tables in a holley is a great feature, Smitty

I had safeties set up... if any of those limits hit it would limit rpm to 2500.. like a Guardian mode

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...9ffd98a828.jpg

Smitty,

Thanks for the call-back the other day. The numbers the tuner was throwing at me were leaner than the builder had mentioned throughout our conversations, and the tuner was more than willing to accept input from someone with more marine tuning experience.

Can I get a glossary of acronyms? A few of them I know. A few I have guesses.... :rolleyes:

Thanks. Brad.

KR= knock retard
ECT; engine coolant temp
PW: pulse width or "ms" milliseconds of injector firing/triggering in a fuel table

Setup a 2D timing offset with MAT vs MAP. Enter how much timing (-) you want to pull at certain areas of the map.
Example
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...87abc686d9.jpg

I do this for all of my safeties. If I have below 0-20 PSI oil it will wait 5 seconds and then pull -4000lbs of fuel. My engine will shut down
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...4c81d7d0a2.jpg

becareful with safeties. merc guardian mode will never ever completely shut your engine down.
our holley "guardians" limit you to about 2000rpm. reason being, you never want co completely lose control of your vessel. could be in a shipping lane, dealing with a current, or trying to avoid hitting the dock.
case in point, if my engine is overheating but im about to go over niagara falls- f@ck the engine, im getting out of there.
you want to know there's an issue sure, but keep it gentle. major power drop at high rpm can be lethal in the wrong boat. back out of the throttles hard in a cat and hang on tight.
we have used input/output to trigger a mil light or an alarm as well.

Good information above.
Regardless how he sets them up, he needs to setup some safeties. If not, might as well put a blow through carb on and start reading plugs.

Johnny, Rookie,

Tuner built in some safety triggers. OP, FP, CT, I think. All set to limit RPM. After reading the plugs, on Smitty’s advice (he doesn’t tune hardly any boat engines), he also dropped AFR at a handful of key spots about 0.2pts and smoothed the table. I’m going to Cumberland this weekend, and I’m going to have a laptop with me with the Holley software and TeamViewer installed. If anything is amiss, he can capture my laptop and make any adjustments from home. We’re not anticipating any complications, though.

Thanks. Brad.

Does the Holly system have a the ability to log data?

Wildman,

I believe so, but I have no idea how to do so. As of right now, it's in open loop and the WBO2 is out. I asked the tuner about it a couple days ago, and he said it's just about as easy to just read the plugs from this point. They tell the real story, anyhow.

Thanks. Brad.

Why doesnt the 02 sensor read? To read plugs you have to start with a fresh set, go wot shut off , "read" plugs (I couldn`t ever tell anything ) then what about midrange how you read plugs there?
When there is a o2 available why not tune off that? It`s by far the most accurate annd super easy way.
Running open loop doesnt have the system account for weather, temps, etc it`s basically a carburetor at that point. The whole point of Holley(for me anyways) is to have it compensate from 1500rpm onward.

Holley data logs , very easy to bring all that data up:
I would pull data after every weekend.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...a3d892222a.jpg

Dan,

Did you run yours closed loop? Ever have any issues losing WBO2s? I've always been told that one doesn't run closed loop in a boat because water will eventually kill the WBO2, and then you're dead in the water. Once the decision to switch to the Holley was made, the intent was to tune it and run it in open loop. Pretty much every Merc engine out there runs open loop. Would it be better to run closed loop, maximizing efficiency and output full time? Absolutely. But the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion, nor that of the tuner. We've got it tuned safe; in the "rich" half of the "OK" range all around. We are going to run it this weekend and see how it does, then I'll touch base with the tuner and discuss.

The WBO2 reads just fine. We used it to tune the ECM with the tuner manually modifying the table as he watched the ECM correct from the base tune, holding his target AFR. It was really cool to watch him do this. He used the mouse pad with his index finger while he tapped on the number pad with his pinky and ring finger, manually inputting numbers on the grid where he saw need, based on the corrections he saw the ECM making to hold target AFR. The boat just kept running better and better. After a short convo between him and Smitty, he made an adjustment to the target AFR and we went through the process all over again. He was even making small adjustments to timing as he went. By the time he was done (about an hour total time), he was seeing nothing but 0% corrections from base tune, no matter what I did to the throttle. He accounted for weather, given the weather we typically see vs what we had that day. It was very obvious he'd done this many, many times.

The ONE thing I'm even remotely concerned with is that it died twice, shifting into gear, after dropping him off to pick up the trailer. It also shifted into gear several times without incident, but it did sag a bit each time. I now understand why Merc went with the Ford PWM IAC: It reacts much quicker to the sudden change in load when shifting into gear. After telling him about this, he made a quick change to something (he told me, but I don't remember) that he said SHOULD solve that problem. But we haven't run it since. We'll find out. :popcorn:

Thanks. Brad.

The whole point to me for Holley is closed loop compensation.
There was never a time where compensation was 0 in my case.
Water temps, pressure, water conditions, ambient temps it all changes the tune on the fly all the time.
Once very close I would limit the compensation to 10%. if the o2 took a $hit the tune wouldn`t change drastically. I never had any o2 issues however.
That being said I built 'garbage motors' so I wouldn`t take my advice, seems like you have it under control, if it runs great that`s all that matters.
shifting is the hardest thing to tune as are cold starts.
But again I`m just some dildo trying to play engine builder and most of the time it didn`t work out for me.

Dan,

The whole point for the Holley for me was an alternative to the 555 that could be tuned in a moment's notice (proverbially). When I was speaking with Mark Boos about the prospects of tuning the 555 (we were talking about changing cams at the time), he indicated that there would be at least two round trips for the ECM, shipping it to him, him adjusting the tune and sending it back for me to test and build an AFR table, then shipping it back to him for refinement. Farq that. The Holley eliminated all that and the tuning was done in a day. It fires up cold with a roar, just like it did with the 555 and idles stably at ~700RPM, even cold, even at zero throttle position, just like the 555 did. I'm happy as a pig in sh!t. I've got my boat back, and I don't have to worry about those damned wet biscuit cast pistons or PM rods anymore. It would appear that any/all the measures we did to gain some muscle might have been for naught, but it's all good. I'm on the water again.

Personally, I think the engines you built are badass, and I've shown pics and videos of them to many people.

Thanks. Brad.

O2 sensors and salt air is definitely a concern. If your tail pipes are going out the transom, and your boating in salt water, your o2 sensors will not last forever and it will end your day if they go bad. That salt air and moisture will work it's way back through the dry portion of your exhaust. Boating in fresh water much less of a concern, but I personally think moisture does work it's way back into the dry portion of the exhaust, and after time, will kill an o2, and potentially your motor. I would tune it on the safe side, and then pull those o2 sensors out and plug the holes. If some day your feeling like some more power, plug them back in and start playing with it.

Ryan,

This is exactly where we are. Tune is conservative and safe. WBO2 is out, the ports plugged and the cable coiled and buttoned up. I have the sensor, sensor socket and 3/8 breaker bar, and an old 10mm Allen wrench for the O2 port plugs in a ziplock on the boat. I’ll have the laptop charged and with me for the first several trips, and the tuner on speed dial.

This boat will never see salt water as long as we own it. Just…. No. But I hear ya loud and clear on the water/WBO2 thing.

Thanks. Brad.

The Eddie marine engines I`m getting are open loop.

So your saying closed loop is the best and everyone should be running it, but your engines run open loop?

*you`re

I guess I wasn't fully awake yet

02 is not the most accurate way. It is super easy, yes. Must accurate way is the read the plugs, more work by far.

100% incorrect. EFI will make fueling adjustments by using the sensors and what is programmed in the ecu/tune. Not even close to a carburetor. It won't make addition adjustments on top of the sensors if the 02's are turned off. I personally limit my 02 correction to 4% for idle / p/t and have 02 correction turned off at higher loads. If you 02's are correcting 10% or more, your tune is way off IMO.

UnderPSI,

Plus, as I’m told, the HP has a barometer, so it will, in fact, compensate for changes in weather and elevation.

Thanks. Brad.

You were told wrong.
You're MAP and closed loop compensation accounts for that.

Rookie,

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...78b31cced3.png

It might be a matter of semantics, but, it does, in fact, account for air density changes, like a barometer.

Thanks. Brad.