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AQ290 DP Shifting to Neutral Problem
Hi guys
I recently experienced that I could not shift my Volve Penta AQ 290 DP from forward drive back to neutral. When being in the marina shifting from neutral to forward and rearward drive was absolutely fine. After I left the marina I increased the engine revs and the load. When I wanted to stop the boat I could not shift back into neutral so the boat remained idling by going constantly forward. The only way to get it back into neutral was by shifting it back through the starter motor the moment before the engine would fire up. The shifting mechanism at the back of the sterndrive and the cable from the shifter are not seized and all parts move easily. My sterndrive was filled with new API-GL5 SAE 90 oil. The oil lever was at max according to the oil dip stick. MY boat has got 700h on the meter hence I believe that the sterndrive is 700h old as well. Before taking it apart I would like to know if the problem could be narrowed down. I was thinking about this problem being related to a worn clutch cone. Has anyone expereinced a similar behaviour and could tell me how it was fixed? I lost the confidence in the sterndrive at the moment as it would have been a disaster in the marina if you can't go into neutral as you can imagine :D Thank you very much guys Martin |
It could be related to a worn cone clutch. If the clutch is slipping, sometimes when they get hot they stick in the cone.
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Originally Posted by scarabman
(Post 4910513)
It could be related to a worn cone clutch. If the clutch is slipping, sometimes when they get hot they stick in the cone.
Do you think the clutch cone would get stuck when being in gear for 10 minutes under load? It shouldn’t slip then. My problem appeared after being in forward gear for some time. |
has the drive ever been apart?
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4910754)
has the drive ever been apart?
Considering that my boat is from 1990 I’d assume that it was apart at some point. |
Don't those 200 series outdrives use standard multi-grade engine oil and not the 90wt gear oil ?
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Originally Posted by madbouyz
(Post 4912762)
Don't those 200 series outdrives use standard multi-grade engine oil and not the 90wt gear oil ?
I haven’t been into one in about 10 years, but yes, I recall using 10w40, that’s what it called for. But who knows now, since the EPA ( god bless them 🙄) put a hammer on the zinc content in automotive multi grade oil, they may have changed what they’re calling for now |
Hi guys
Thank you for the replies. I have changed the clutch cone. The old one definitely felt worn and "flat" compared to the new one. What I noticed is that the gear set in which the cone is engaging, so the opposite part of the cone above and below, seemed to have some sort of sticky coating/layer. I'm not sure if this was some sort of friction coating or remains of additives/debris?! This made the new cone be very sticky when engaged, making it difficult to remove when shifted by hand. Does anybody know what that is and if I should take it off with a fleece pad or something? Are you recommending 10W40 instead of the blue Volvo Penta oil? Thank you guys! |
I have always used the Volvo gl5 oil in my 290 drives, if you have the older Volvo drives with the brass cones use non synthetic oil, my Volvo guy said if you have the cones that have a black coating on them and they start slipping they have to be replaced, if they don’t have the black coating they can be lapped with valve compound. Also I had an issue with shifting when my idle was a little too high, shifted fine on the water hose but once in the water and under load would not shift out of gear, I just shut the motor off put in neutral and restarted and had to do that.
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Years ago, Volvo put out a bulletin on this. They go pretty in depth. Here's the short version. Volvo tech support and the instructor at the drive school both said to only lap with the old cone and check the pattern with the new cone. Both said all new cones have a special coating on them that lapping will ruin. I've never lapped a new cone but have talked to techs that have, they said they had no problems after lapping a new cone.
Note! Mark the upper and lower gear cups, so that they are reassembled in the same position. 1. Start by lapping the gear cups together with the old cone. Thoroughly clean in solvent and dry the clean pieces. 2. Using a valve grinding paste, lap new cone into respective gear cup. Note! One at a time making sure marking “TOP” on the new cone faces the upper gear cup. The proper way to do this is to: A. Coat the gear cup with a thin even layer of medium valve grinding paste. B. Insert the cone into the cup and rotate approximately 30° back and forth using as much pressure as possible for about 10 times. C. Lift cone straight up and rotate it 120° (1/3 turn) and repeat the above procedure. D. Lift cone once more straight up and turn it another 120° (1/3) and repeat the above procedure. 3. Note! THOROUGHLY CLEAN in a solvent keeping the grit out of the bearing and dry the clean pieces. 4. Apply thin even layer of Prussian blue marking paste or equivalent in the gear cup (1). Insert the cone and rotate under pressure back and forth, no more than 10°. Remove (straight up) cone from cup and inspect both pieces for uniform contact. If uniform contact is not obtained repeat above described procedure as many times as needed. 5. When uniform contact is achieved repeat procedure for the remaining gear cup with corresponding cone. |
Originally Posted by 496blower
(Post 4933831)
I have always used the Volvo gl5 oil in my 290 drives, if you have the older Volvo drives with the brass cones use non synthetic oil, my Volvo guy said if you have the cones that have a black coating on them and they start slipping they have to be replaced, if they don’t have the black coating they can be lapped with valve compound. Also I had an issue with shifting when my idle was a little too high, shifted fine on the water hose but once in the water and under load would not shift out of gear, I just shut the motor off put in neutral and restarted and had to do that.
The old cone and the new one are both steel.
Originally Posted by muc
(Post 4933855)
Years ago, Volvo put out a bulletin on this. They go pretty in depth. Here's the short version. Volvo tech support and the instructor at the drive school both said to only lap with the old cone and check the pattern with the new cone. Both said all new cones have a special coating on them that lapping will ruin. I've never lapped a new cone but have talked to techs that have, they said they had no problems after lapping a new cone.
Note! Mark the upper and lower gear cups, so that they are reassembled in the same position. 1. Start by lapping the gear cups together with the old cone. Thoroughly clean in solvent and dry the clean pieces. 2. Using a valve grinding paste, lap new cone into respective gear cup. Note! One at a time making sure marking “TOP” on the new cone faces the upper gear cup. The proper way to do this is to: A. Coat the gear cup with a thin even layer of medium valve grinding paste. B. Insert the cone into the cup and rotate approximately 30° back and forth using as much pressure as possible for about 10 times. C. Lift cone straight up and rotate it 120° (1/3 turn) and repeat the above procedure. D. Lift cone once more straight up and turn it another 120° (1/3) and repeat the above procedure. 3. Note! THOROUGHLY CLEAN in a solvent keeping the grit out of the bearing and dry the clean pieces. 4. Apply thin even layer of Prussian blue marking paste or equivalent in the gear cup (1). Insert the cone and rotate under pressure back and forth, no more than 10°. Remove (straight up) cone from cup and inspect both pieces for uniform contact. If uniform contact is not obtained repeat above described procedure as many times as needed. 5. When uniform contact is achieved repeat procedure for the remaining gear cup with corresponding cone. Do you know what coating there is on the cone or how to identify if they are coated? The old and new cone are made of steel and don't look like coated. The old cone is definitely work and more "flat" in there areas where the cone engages with the upper and lower cup. I think now it makes sense why the old cone says "TOP" which is probably related to the lapping procedure so that nothing is mixed unintentionally. The new cone does not say "TOP". I think what you are saying does make sense. I'm still unsure what the "sticky" layer on the upper and lower cup is. The new fresh clutch cone holds onto it extremely well. If I insert the cone with a little bit of hand pressure, it's quite difficult to get out of the cup. I also realised that during dry shifting between F, N, R when turning the input shaft by hand. So in summary I should lap the new cone with the upper and lower cup with medium valve grinding. Then clean and check engagement on both sides with marking compound. Repeat until even engagement is achieved. What is still unclear to me is the darker "layer" of the upper and lower cup which is in contact with the cone when in gear? Do you know where i can find that Volvo bulletin? Many thanks guys. I'm super happy about you your support! |
Originally Posted by 496blower
(Post 4933831)
I have always used the Volvo gl5 oil in my 290 drives, if you have the older Volvo drives with the brass cones use non synthetic oil, my Volvo guy said if you have the cones that have a black coating on them and they start slipping they have to be replaced, if they don’t have the black coating they can be lapped with valve compound. Also I had an issue with shifting when my idle was a little too high, shifted fine on the water hose but once in the water and under load would not shift out of gear, I just shut the motor off put in neutral and restarted and had to do that.
Juat make sure you get yhe approproiate grit paste. The stuff you get from the local auto parts stores is pretty coarse. You may need to order it online. Clover valve lapping...or so.wthing like that. 400-600-800 grit. I've also used aqua buff 1000 for lapping duty in a pinch. |
service bulletin
group 44-1 number 13 version 01 date 11-1990 With this info any Volvo Penta dealer can print it for you. I wouldn't lap a brand new cone (use the old one), only thing you could do is mess it up. Cone design and technology have advanced since this bulletin. Don't know what the "darker layer" on the cups is, maybe burnt ****ty gear lube? Was it slipping before? Lost count of how many slipping drives would come into the shop. 2-3 changes of genuine Volvo lube with a little lake testing in-between fixed most of them. I remember one customer was a Amsoil freak "nothing better". But because we were a Volvo dealer his only two choices were 1. flush out the Amsoil with Volvo or 2. replace the gear set and clutch for $$$$. Kind of funny to see his reaction when 3 flushes fixed the slipping, happy he saved $$$$, and at the same time sad that Amsoil isn't as good as Volvo lube. After 30 years of being a Volvo tech ---- I wouldn't put anything other then Volvo lube in one of their drives that calls for GL-5 As to cone coating. No idea, I order the part number Volvo recommends and install it per their instructions. Only times I've lapped is for friends and family. I use the old cone to lap the cups. Use the new cone to check pattern. Clean everything and install. I use the water based lapping compound that they sell at the auto parts store, hot water rinse, blow dry and coat with gear lube. The oil based stuff sucks to clean up. Do yourself a favor and go to a Chevy dealer and get the yellow gear marking paste, soo much easier to see then the blue. A little is better then too much. |
Thank you very much guys!
I got red gear marking paste. Waiting for the lapping compound to be delivered. Will keep you updated about the progress. Once I take it apart, I'll also try to take a picture of the dark and sticky "layer" on the cup surface. Have a nice weekend! |
Hi guys
Since work got very busy in the months, I now have all the parts to replace the clutch cone. So to do the lapping, I disassembled the upper sterndrive housing. What I noticed is that both seats which engage with the clutch cone seem to have a dark blue ish / black layer on the friction surface. This layer appears to be sort of slightly sticky. So the clutch cone kind of bonds to it when pressed into the seat with a bot of a force. Does anybody know what that could be? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...81fffe80d.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...c574cddda.jpeg Also I noticed that while taking the drive apart, when I engage the reverse gear and revolved the universal joint, the main shaft is pulled up so that the top needle bearing becomes visible. Is that normal or is something broken? I don not recall a problem during usage (other than the clutch cone issue). https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...c9ca283cf1.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...de17458b6a.jpg Many thanks guys! Martin |
Dude I am impressed that you did this, i have a couple Volvo mechanics that do this for me as I am afraid to screw up my drive, I will ask them what they think. I just picked up a couple dpe drives that my buddy’s gonna do the lapping thing to the clutch cones. Hopefully the Volvo gl5 oil is cheaper where you are as its about 35 bucks a litre here and I have 3 dpe drives to do
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Originally Posted by 496blower
(Post 4946506)
Dude I am impressed that you did this, i have a couple Volvo mechanics that do this for me as I am afraid to screw up my drive, I will ask them what they think. I just picked up a couple dpe drives that my buddy’s gonna do the lapping thing to the clutch cones. Hopefully the Volvo gl5 oil is cheaper where you are as its about 35 bucks a litre here and I have 3 dpe drives to do
Haha now you made me wonder if I screwed up with my decision to take it apart. :D Thank you for asking your mechanics about their opinion. That's much appreciated! Could you eventually also ask them what oil they are recommending? If it's Volvo Penta oil then the PN would be amazing. I definitely wanna make sure that it's not gonna go wrong again once I lapped and assembled everything. Thank you very much. Martin |
Haven’t had time to speak to my guys, as to oil just get the Volvo penta 75/90 gl5 synthetic oil
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I will take a pic of the Volvo penta gl5 oil I have, what dp unit do you have A,B,C,D,E
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Here is a pic of the Volvo drives and their oil requirements, it’s a long diagram but took oic of maybe what you have, I know some of the early 280 drives say use 30wt oil, I have always run 75/90 in those just not synthetic 75/90, on all my dp drives the synthetic 75/90 will get pic of the oil can tomorrow for you
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Have to spend some time going through the silhouettes to look for features which match my sterndrive. Have you heard back from your mechanic regarding the dark coating on the clutch seats? Also, does anyone have an idea why the main shaft moves up when I turn the universal bearing anti-clockwise (see pictures)? Thank you Martin |
I know A and B series have a metal bracket that the power trim rams mount to on the drive, I think c,d,e series the rams mount directly on the drive., I will try and take closer up pics of the drive diagrams, unfortunately too large to scan and email
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This is some close ups of drives, it does not show dpe but its is the same as the D and uses vp gl5 75/90, the earlier models show gl4 90, not sure Volvo makes that anymore, check your Volvo dealer. Sorry my guy is out and have not had a chance to speak with him
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Thank you for the feedback!
To prevent me from causing further damage I kept reading before lapping. In one of the articles it was said that Volvo experimented during the production time of the DP drives. Apparently the steel sleeve and the steel cups must not be lapped. Only the ones where one of the two is made out of brass shall be lapped - which sounds logical. Furthermore the article also mentioned Volvo added some sort of anti friction coating to the cups. These shall also not be lapped - which also sounds logical. Now, the configuation I had when I opened my drive was steel sleeve, steel cups, some sort of sticky layer on the cups only. I am wondering now if I have the combination of factory fit steel sleeve, steele cups AND friction coating. Unfortunately I am unsure what my sterndrive seriel number was as it was corroded away. Maybe someone of you guys has the ability to check what the factory fit shifting cobination of my drive is? https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...77cdecd9a5.jpg I have no idea what was replaced during the first 30 years of useage before I got the drive. Also I am wondering if my issue was linked to the oil I used. According to the information I had at the time my drive needed GL5. So I used Ravenol SAE 90 GL5 oil. I know not the recommended Volvo Penta oil but I didn't know any better back then since it is my first boat. As it is a but of a pain to get to the clutch sleeve, I would like to get the confidence that the internals are as intended before putting it back together and try it with the Volvo Penta oil. Technically I have three options now. Option 1: use a new brass sleeve and lap Option 2: use a new steel sleeve and lap Option 3: use the old steel sleeve and try again with the Volvo Penta oil Sorry for the big confusion. I think finding out what the factory fit configration was is the best starting point. Thank you Martin |
Do you have a picture of the complete drive, at least we could narrow it down a little to the model, sorry but it’s getting a little too technical for me, do you not have a vp mechanic near you, also perhaps look for a good used top box, as gear ratio is in the lower unit, that’s one of the nice things about Volvo penta is a lot of interchangeable with their drives.
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When it comes to the top box their are too types early models had a smaller top bearing and laters models had a larger top bearing, I have a dpe and have a dpx top box, I am referring the upper section when I say top box as the drives have the lower section, mid section and upper or top box. Do your power trim rams mount to the mid section directly to the drive or is there a large stainless steel bracket that they attach to.. if you have the big stainless bracket that the rams attach to it’s most likely an A or B model.send pic, and I know a lot of guys like to rebuild their own stuff but sometimes it’s good to take to a mechanic, it’s not like a car that you fix yourself and it breaks down 2 miles down the road, just pull over and fix or call. Tow truck, the boat breaks down and you maybe heading for the rocks on a beach.
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Hi
Here are three older pictures. One from the previous owner and two while I was cleaning it after the purchase. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...a3f41f495a.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...d9299b424.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...d0b1bbddb.jpeg |
Most likely dp-A or dp-B
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75w90 vs 90w gear oil is very similar at operating temps.
It's the low water temp at startup and initial warm up where the 90w can be a problem. At 60°f 75w90 150-200cSt 90w 400-600cSt 212°f both are in the 13.5-18.5 cSt area. |
I don’t think it will hurt it to run either the GL4 or GL5 gear oils, Volvo has strange recommendations, in my old 280 drives I just ran non synthetic gear oil for years even though they list 30wt motor oil, I think the only thing is don’t run synthetic with the older 280 that have the brass clutch cones as it’s too slippery. The only real issue is the outrageous cost of the gl5 75/90 gear oils, I will soon have 3 drives to fill up at 35 bucks a litre.
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Hi guys
Thank you for your feedback! I kept scanning through the internet but unfortunately I did not get any further regarding the best repair strategy for the steel sleeve/steel cup combination. I think I used the wrong oil accidentally. What I put in when I got the boat was Ravenol EXP SAE 90 GL-5. Since SAE90 GL-5 or 75W-90 was mentioned in the DP manual I had access to back in 2022 and the Ravenol oil was available, I went with this one. I have read that the steel sleeve, steel cup and friction layer combination was used for high torque diesel engines back in the early 90's as the brass cone was not suitable for high torque applications. Before I swapped to a 350 MAG MPI, my boat was originally equipped with a 7.4l V8 GM carburetor gasoline engine but who knows what the real reason for the steel sleeve was. Maybe the Norwegian building yard just used what was available. So I think I am going to do the following.
Recommendations and hints linked to what I'm planning to do are welcome! Thank you Martin |
Dude once again good luck, I am way too chicken to take apart my top box. Yes good idea with the vp oil.
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