Whipples for 700hp/torque???...
 

okay gang---here goes. I am assuming that Whipples are the best from what I hear. Which is the best version to go with when it comes to a Whipple?---carbed or fuel injection?

How much torque and horsepower can I expect to gain from a Whipple Charged stock Merc 454" MPI engine with stock heads and with aluminum heads?

How much torque/hp from a stock Merc 502" MPI (415hp) engine w/whipples with stock heads and with aluminum heads?

How much torque/hp from a stock Merc 502" 500hp EFI w/Whipples---stock heads and then with aluminum heads.

I want the least amount of maintenance, turn-key operation, SUPER DUPER smooth idling (ASOLUTELY NO SURGE). I only want enough cubic inches to make 700hp @5500 WOT and about 700ft lbs of torque---no more. What cubes can it be done with and what Whipple charger should be utilized? It must be a bolt on situation, however I am willing to modify to aluminum heads if it will make it more reliable and decrease my chances of having troubles. What kind of boost and what kind of fuel? Thanks in advance.

Mark/KAAMA

Try going to the Whipple web site. I believe they HP figures for the 3 engine combinations you requested.

Rick

What are you up to :D I was always under the impression from reading your posts that you were turn key with the setup you have ;)

KAAMA, What kind of project are you looking at? Alot of money for one of these engines if you don't allready have one. I have a 502MPI and am very happy with it, all though if I was shopping I would go to the 500EFI. Idles like it did when stock.
Here are the numbers off Whipples web site, I hope Dustin don't mind. It looks like you will need the 500EFI to get the HP you are looking for. You need to talk to Dustin about the heads for the 502MPI. I did and if I remember right he indicated that there was a lot more involved; like fuel rail and injectors &, &, & not to mention, trying to program the computers. Definitely not turn key!
If you do the install, it is not really turn key either. It takes alot of testing and checking, and if the fuel mixture is wrong then you have to send the ECU's back, to have dustin change them.
Don't forget about the HD Outdrive either.

1999 - 2001 Mercury Hi-Performance 500 HP EFI
Horsepower Peak 490 @ 5400 742 @ 5500 252 51%
Torque Peak 554 @ 4200 824 @ 3400 270 49%
Torque Average 2200 - 5000 RPM 503 Ft./Lbs. 792 Ft./Lbs. 289 57%

1993 - 2001 MerCruiser Magnum 502 MPI
Horsepower Peak 415 @ 5000 640 @ 5300 225 54%
Torque Peak 499 @ 3800 748 @ 2800 249 50%
Torque Average 2200 - 5000 RPM 453 Ft./Lbs. 711 Ft./Lbs. 258 57%

Anyone know what the Whipple website address is please? I tried last night without any gain. Thanks

Mark/KAAMA

KAAMA

If memory serves me correctly it is whipplesuperchargers.com.

Be safe.
Mark

BTW, I am being very sincere here. I know---- I am usually a Naturally Aspirated kind of guy, but I thought it would be cool if I could make 700hp and torque out of a stock bottom end 454 MPI with maybe some CNC's aluminum heads. I heard that with super chargers these days that you can get them to even idle better than naturally aspirated engines and yet they SCREAM when you want the power. I love a SUPER SMOOTH idle----I hate a rough idle. The smoother the idle the better I like it, but I don't want the SURGE effect. Smoother idles are less annoying to me, my crew, bystanders, and of course the ever faithful, more than happy marine patrol. :)

Hey, KAAMA,
If you want to make 700hp and 700lb-ft at 5500, you can use a Whipple at about 6psi and displacement of 427 or more very reliably. It can be done with a smaller engine but reliability will suffer. The two things that you must do-the cam selection is critical-call Robert for info-and the cylinder heads must be right. Dart Pro-1's are good, but they will not run with AFR. I would recommend 315's here. These will bust Pro-1s on a supercharged application.;) Good luck, call if you need us!!

Well then perhaps it would have to be a 502" engine---like maybe the Merc 415hpMPI (390hp @ the prop) with aftermarket manifolds or even headers and CNC'd aluminum heads? But it MUST be a TURN KEY/RELIABLE operation!

I am working up some engines with Tyler Crockett, 540 (gen6 block) 8.3 +- compression new whipple 3.3l with large roots style intercooler. Aluminum heads. This setup is EFI But apparently all the injectors are in the thottle body, so it kind of works like a carb. This will run low boost 2-3 psi max These will also run on 89 octane gas. (requirement) Should Idle like a stocker and we are expecting 750 - 800 Hp each. I am about 1 month away from completion of the 1st one and I will have dyno info I will post when done. Meanwhile I have a picture of a similar setup but in a V-drive boat.

Picture compliments of Dustin

P.S. in order to get 700 Hp out of a stock 502 you would have to run 5Psi or above and use premimum fuel. I am getting new rotating assy's in order to get the 540 cubes

KAAMA,
The bigger the motor, the less stress it takes to make a given power. That said, a 502 would be great but, at 700hp, not necessary for a dead reliable engine and the smaller displacement would give better fuel ecenomy. Again, CAM and HEADS are critical, no matter what. Aluminum heads of almost any kind are better than almost any iron heads, especially when it comes to detonation prevention(the #1 killer of blower motors.
The Whipples will make up for the smaller displacement, even at low end.

Re: Whipples for 700hp/torque???...
 

I am not following the torque request?? if you make 700 Hp it seems to me you will make more than 700 ft lbs torque along the power band. My 502 x whipples produced something like 750 Ft lbs of TQ well under 5000 then it drops off at the higher RPM's

see my dyno sheets:
http://www.raymondbaldwin.com/WhippleInstall/dyno.pdf
(about 300k)

Raypanic - thanks for the report on your project. Keep that data coming!

Given the forged bottom end of the HP500EFI engines, along with them making your HP and Torque requirements without extra components and high boost, I would believe this to be the most reliable of the combinations. Give Dustin "Whipple Charged" a PM and see what he says. There was a thread about reliablilty of the HP500EFI and were a few posts from people with Whipples running reliably with something like 300 hours. I'll be looking to Whipple myself but am still under warranty and can't bring myself to give that up. That and the $7K per motor ;)

Steve

Mark what thr heck are you talking about?????you are the naturally asperated big cube King!!!can I have the 540's I'm a real nice guy and promise to be nice to them!!!!Its almost Christmas .......

Ray,
What do youhave planned for the 502's in the 38? Weren't those just built up this past winter?

Mark/KAAMA,
Consider giving Steve David a PM. He's got a few Whipple charged HP500 EFI's and says the output is between 680 and 700 hp.

-Bayley

Bayley,

I believe I will be selling the PQ, Not sure yet though. I bought a 47 Fountain (less engines) and am having Tyler build up the engines for it. These will be the 540's. I had a couple of 502's from the PQ after the re-power last year, I am using these for the fountain. When it is all said and done I can have the 540 x whipple packages for a little more $$ than Merc 525's. (+200 Hp) Because of all the parts I have from the last re-power I am saving a lot of $$$. I have full confidence in the whipple products and Tylers' abilities so I figured why not? I plan on doing alot of the work myself to save some money too. Lets see if I can break 100 :eek:

Raypanic, so that was a "roots" style vs. centrifugal (did I spell that right?) supercharger in the picture you posted? I thought all Whipples were manufactured as a centrifugal type. Thanks for all the input you guys.

And yes, I want to keep the torque at right around 700 foot pounds between 3000-5500rpm. HP can be 700-720hp or so. I would probably prefer the carbed version. Also looking at 871 Littlefield with 2x4 750cfm Holley's.

Dyno, if I do this I would sell my rotating assemblies, intakes, 950 carbs, heads would be for sale too,----not going to give it away, but I usually try to price things to sell. I may not even do this---I'm just checking it all out and I'm very interested.

Kamma, if you want, shoot me an email regarding some of the particulars, such as what engines you currently have or if this is a new boat and starting from scratch, approx. budget, etc.

Ideally, the cubic inches are a lot of help, and if your starting from scratch buying a crank, rods, etc. than a 540 is a very logical choice, but if your starting with something else, there are other venues. I would include aluminum heads, thats for sure. I can tell you a good head and cam choice that will certainly make the power. Paul Phaff and Gary Teague are both building packages like this in EFI. Tyler Crockett is close to you and I can work with him if needed to achieve this. With this level, we can do everything with the MEFI 3 ECU and I can email files to Tyler if needed. I can send something really close that will only need to be fine tuned in the boat or on the dyno. They will idle, with no surge, no problems there :D

This is a pretty simple task, so EFI will have the best idle and most consistent turn key operation, but carbs are hard to beat, once there dialed in, there pretty darn reliable. So let me know what your starting with and I can share some info if needed.

To answer your power questions:
454 Mag SC'd
590-610 HP/660-700lbs. of torque w/stock heads
675-700 HP/700-730lbs. of torque w/aluminum heads/cam change

502 Mag SC'd
620-640 HP/710-740lbs. of torque w/stock heads
700/725 HP/730-775lbs. of torque w/aluminum heads/cam change

500 HP EFI SC'd
690-720 HP/775-820lbs. of torque w/stock heads
750-800 HP/800-850lbs. of torque w/aluminum head/cam change

These are all with the new "top mount" systems.

At the same time, the aluminum headed motor will be more consistent in power, more reliable in terms of detonation as well as fuel and water psi variance.

Thanks,
Dustin

Kamma,

Ours are actually a "screw-type" supercharger. Similar in looks and function to a "roots" but it actually compress's the air internally as well as the intake manifold. This allows for a cooler air charge and less parasatic losses.

Thanks,
Dustin

Heres a picture of what they look like:

Kaama, The roots style I was speaking of was the intercooler it self that Whipple makes. They offer this for many roots style blowers but they also make one for their screw charger to fit on top. The idea here is for my application with lower octane fuel it is a little over kill but if I wanted to run more boost later and make more power (and run premimum) I could without having to buy a bigger intercooler.

Call Dustin if you get a chance he is very helpfull.

KAAMA, I have an idea for you. Go with a longer duration cam and get peak HP up to around 6000 or 6200 RPM. Then your torque will likely be a lower and flatter curve possibly staying below 700 while still netting 700 plus HP. I know you want a smooth idle, but from what I have read you have the patience and knowledge to dial in the fuel delivery at idle and make it work just fine. It is easy to get a motor to idle with a short cam. It takes a little more work to get a big cam to idle nice, but that is the kind of work I enjoy!!:D Just a thought! I know you are a tuner!;)

HEY MARK ,WITH YOUR FUNDS FOR CONSULTATION FEE'S ON OSO I'D JUST CALL MY FRIEND SONNY LEONARD AND ORDER A COUPLE OF HIS 723 INCH DYNO PROVEN BEAST AND FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE

OR CALL AND GET A PAIR OF TORQUES
SPEND SOME OF THAT MONEY BURRIED IN YOUR BACK YARD
:D :D :D

Thanks to everyone for you input...
 

Wow!---lots of good material from Hi-Tech knowledgable people----I'm dually impressed! Thanks to all who have responded. My questions have for the most part been answered. I think Bobby D got it right----the knowledge a person can gain from OSO and the input from people within this thread is priceless. I think the "Technical Q & A" section is where the REAL boaters mostly hang out!

I especially want to thank the Hi-Tech people---the PRO's for responding to my post: blown1500, Dustin Whipple, and Bobby Daniels for all your input. Dang! You guys can really bring the meat to the table, you had it all laid out like a dead soldier!

Hey Vette, I know you're one of the big cube kings as well and you're very knowledgable. When I saw that you were considering a blower you got me thinking about a blower myself! Anyway, you're wrong about me being a tuner. Lord knows I like a well tuned and efficient running engine, but I'm not much of a tuner! I could do it but probably not near as well as someone who has years of experience and KNOWS how to properly tune an engine-----and that's NOT me! I'll leave that to the PRO's!

At this point I am still not sure what I want to do. I just wanted to check my options. I love this sport, but dang it can sure get expensive in a hurry! :)

Thanks,
Mark/KAAMA

KAAMA, Blowers = Broken Bravo
 

Blowers are tempting, but the fact is you don't need a blower to get 700 HP as you already know. If I do a blower motor it will have no less than 900 HP and will run on pump gas. The only real way to do a blower is some other drive than a bravo. That Whipple picture looks like it is in a v-drive application probably a 21 Schiada. That is my dream boat but with 1000 HP blow motor it becomes a super expensive 21 footer. :cool

WOW Mark, You gotta love this place. All of the answers in one day. Just open up the check book and get it going. LOL

Ray, Nice looking motor. That baby is gonna rock.

Dustin does the new style supercharger on the top only work with the MEFI3 ECU, or will it work with the older MEFI2.
Always thinking about the next project!

Yeah Ray, the picture of the engine you've posted looks hot. By eliminating another pulley, those cam driven water pumps really clean up the front of an engine. I have them on my N/A 540's as well. Also, they're MUCH, EXTREMELY that much easier and a WHOLE LOT LESS AGGRIVATING to change an impeller. The stock pulley mounted water pumps are a pain in the ARSE to change over---you practically have to stand on your head to do the job.

I'll take the cam driven water pumps any day! :)

Rockie,

The top mount only works with the MEFI 3, the MEFI 1/2 does not have the ability to read above 100Kpa, or boost.

Thanks,
Dustin

Thanks for the info Dustin. I was pretty sure that was the answer, but I wanted to be sure.

Mark cant you just Whipple the 540's?????why start completly over? you got some great parts lower the compression and go!!!!

YEAH KAAMA ! whipple the 540's :D

You can make 740 plus HP with your motors NA. Up the cam a little and go to 4500 carbs and you are there. It could still be turn key with a lot more cam than you are running. The Whipples would be cool but you are talking some serious bucks for a few HP more than you already have. It will be interesting to hear what Whipple and 1500 have to say though. My opinion as always. :cool:

Hello, WETTE VETTE,
You can make the horsepower on an NA motor, I have done that too. The motors I build with blowers will make the power, idle much better, easier on parts, smaller cams, less maintenance, better low end performance, etc., etc., etc.
I like NA, but the blower, properly done, I think, is a better investment, especially in a boat!!!!!

I agree the blower is the ticket for high HP. I guess what I am trying to say is KAAMA's 540's could easily make another 50 HP or so with a cam change and some bigger carbs and still be a turnkey *****cat. He is running some very good flowing heads and I feel he is really leaving some power on the table with his current set-up. Now if he were trying to get 800 HP out of the 540 then his set up would be gettin a little wild and the mild blower motor would be the better choice. Now 800 HP out of a 632 could be a real mild and reliable motor. Personally I wouldn't run a blower unless I was after 900 plus HP. Anything less could be made with a NA motor especially with the big inch stuff available today. Blowers are expensive man!!

Good points, WETTE VETTE, the one problem here is he wants a smooth idle and not too much torque. You would have some idle issues and the low end torque would be more then he says he wants. Also, The most reliable power is a NA that is big enough to make the power with a small cam and low compression.

LADIES AND GENTELMEN...
 

In this corner we have;------the man who's boat runs 97mph, a do it yourselfer engine builder, lover of mechanical roller cams, has a face only a mother could love and even she has her doubts, able to burn a full tank of high octane fuel in less that 30 minutes, enemy of anything less than 8 cylinders, eager to talk about engines like a hungry trout chasin' a worm, BIG CUBE advocate and king of high compression----Craig "WETTE VETTE" Camodjewitz!

And in this corner we have;-----a man with a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering :) , mastermind of supercharged engines :eureka: , is so ugly that he could make a freight train jump track and take a dirt road :eek: , is willing to help others with good advice :D , chews tobacco like dog with peanut butter in his mouth :crazy: , and advocate of the hydraulic roller cam-----Robert "blown1500" Horne!

Hey---just funnin' with you guys a little. Sincerely, I appreciate both your views---I think I am leaning towards blown1500's recommendations.

Here---I'll pick on myself a little now. Last week I went to weigh myself on the scale and a little ticket came out and it said "ONE AT A TIME" :rolleyes:

wette vette,

Blowers are really not much more expensive when your going for this level. Big cubic inch requires a lot of parts, machining and assembly. I could see it being substainsally cheaper if you did the work yourself, but not if you had a shop doing most of the work. The screw type supercharger will make more torque down low and throughout the rpm range than the na motor, if your building a 632, a Whippled 540 will make more torque and would have a huge ear to ear grin factor, because the throttle response will be far better than the na engine. Look at torque curves of na engines vs. screw type, no comparison, theres torque everywhere.

Thanks,
Dustin

If killer is what you want from idle up, I agree with Whipple!!
The only reason I would want ahything else is if the outdrive can't take it or if I could TURBOCHARGE!!
YOU CAN'T OUTRUN A TURBOCHARER!! Whipples are the next best thing and co$t a lot le$$!!!