Valve/spring retainers/locks tech...
 

Okay gang, here's another interesting topic. I here of 7* retainers/locks and then I here of 10* retainers/locks and still I here of SUPER 7* retainers/locks.

My engines currently have 10* retainers/locks, but I was told that the SUPER 7* locks/retainers "grab the valve better"

Can someone tell me which is best for a marine application and why? Thanks

Mark/KAAMA

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Good question, Ive never heard of one coming off. Maybe they are for high rpm?

I have always used 10* locks and retainers. Never had a problem with one. I have never heard of super 7*. Maybe it is something new?? As I know it, the difference between 7* and 10* is the size and diameter of the locks. 10* locks and much larger than 7* locks. It is from the difference is size that the 10* locks stay in the retainer and hold the valve better than 7*.

HEY MARK THE PROBLEM WITH STEEP ANGLE RETAINERS IS TO MUCH ANGLE AND PRESSURE CAN AND DOES AT TIMES SHEER OFF THE TOP OF THE VALVE ,,,BAD DEAL !!!!:(

DRAG MOTORS THIS IS NOT TO BAD A PROBLEM BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT MUCH ,,, BUT ENDURANCE STUFF IT WILL !!
HAVE A GOOD DAY GUYS :D :D

Bobbyd, so what are you saying the 7*, the SUPER 7* or the 10* one are what you prefer?

Mark, we use 10* with no issues yet. The more angle, the more holding power, to a point.

Rod

TO A POINT ,
I LIKE THEM ALL BETTER THAN STOCK ,BUT MY PREFERENCE IS THE LESSER ANGLE

WITH YOUR R P M AND LIFT ITS NOT A SUPER PROBLEM JUST ONE TO BE AWARE OF

I think I am asking too many questions at once
 

Okay let me ask it this way:

In reference to a retainer angles, IS there such a thing as a "Super 7*" retainer/keeper? and why does it differ from a regular 7*???????????????????????????????

MARK I'VE NEVER HEARD OF A SUPER 7 ,BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ITS NOT REAL ,
JUST ALWAYS BUY QUALITY AND INSPECT THEM CAREFULLY BEFORE USE .
HAVE A GREAT NIGHT

Okay thanks Bobby, I can't remember what cam manufacturer refered to a 7* retainers/keepers as a "Super 7" he made it sound special...maybe I wasn't hearing him correctly or something.

I was also told to take some sand paper or whatever and smooth the inner damper spring so that it doesn;t gouge the underside of the retainer as much.

Thanks for your input too Rod!

Mark/KAAMA

I don't understand how the 10* would have more holding power over the 7*. With the 7*, there is less angle, which in turn has more wedge effect over the 10*. Hence, more holding power. With more of a wedge effect, this would also eliminate any floating/slop, if you would, between the retainer and keepers.

Jerry, your thought process is correct, just from the wrong plane. The angle is vertical not horizontal.

Rod

Mark, I have never heard of the "Super 7" either.

Hey Jerry,

I love that little dude doin' the 2-step in your avitar----funnier than heck! Thanks for your input on the thread. It is thought provoking. It makes for a more interesting topic when things get stirred up a bit more. I like the passion of a point counter point/arguement senario. Of course, I don't like it when things get out of hand. We can argue a point with passion and still be gentlemen about it. :)

BTW, how'd your boat run this past year?

Maybe the Crane SD 7 is what he considers the Super 7????

http://www.cranecams.com/master/vsretain.htm

Boat has been turn key all yr. I removed the blower and returned to all stock in order to sell for bigger.
Jerry

Seems the 10s would exert more upward force on the top of the valve stem, the the 7s would point the forces more toward the cl of the vavle, Therefore 10s would be trying to rip the valve tip off more and 7s would be trying to crush the stem/expand retainer more. Just a thought.

BT

Mark/
I run the Super 7's on the Big Chiefs and they are made by Del West. Del West basically makes all titanium stuff and it you won't find many bargins with their equipment, but it is good. I think the locks are designed specifically for their retainers as well. I purchase my parts from CV Products in NC. Their number is 800-448-1223. Good luck.

7's "hold better" from the standpoint of grabbing the valvestem tightly. High spring pressures combined with the high vibration can in some instances let the retainer sqwoosh higher and higher on the locks as the retainer material swells from the pressure (the same way you can expand a tailpipe by hammering a cone into it).

10's will withstand higher spring pressures without trying to swell the hole out in the retainer. This, however, is a trade-off since they don't grab the valvestem as tight.

Super 7's are 7 degree retainers with a "ledge" in them that acts as a stop to keep the retainer from creeping higher on the locks - they are the best of both worlds. They are the most expensive though.

I run titanium 10 degree retainers. Get em wholesale for $130. Same price as 7's. Super 7's are over $200.

I'm not sure exactly how to ask this next question. What effects the assembly of the retainer/locks? In other words, is it the retainer that comes manufactured in different angles or is it the locks (also known as a "keeper") that come in different angles???

I may have more questions depending on the answers I get, but I don't want to ask too many at a time in one post. I have always known about the 7* and 10* degree locks and retainers, but not the "Super 7's". I was always told that the 10* were the way to go for hi-perf, but I really never knew exactly why, and what the advantages and dis-advantages were. I currently am running the 10* titanium retainers with the machined hardend locks. I am just trying to educate myself here a little better on this subject and I appreciate the input guys. Thanks

Mark/KAAMA

The retainers and locks both have to match. They are both manufactured to either 7* or 10*. You can not use a 7* lock with a 10* retainer.

RIGHT BLUE THUNDER ,,,,RIGHT YOU'VE GOT WHAT I'M SAYING FIGURED OUT ,10 DEGREE WON'T BREAK ALL THE TIME BUT THEY DO AND WHY TAKE THE CHANCE :D :D :D

HAVE A GOOD ONE
BOBBY

Hi KAAMA,
Mcollinstn and Checkmate454mag have the right ideas!
The 7* locks do grip the valve tighter, but their smaller diameter makes them more likely to pull through the retainer. Do you remember when aluminum retainers were popular? That was a real problem with them!!! 10* locks are larger in diameter therefore load more area on the retainer and are much harder to pull through. 7* Super Locks are the best of both but are very pricey.
I have never had much problem from any quality aftermarket part but if you run into valve float, you will get a problem. The 7* Supers are the least likely to fail. For most boat applications-less than 6500 rpm and less than .700" lift, you can design a valve train that does not require 7* Super Locks or titanium retainers. They are nice to talk about but an unnecessary expense.
Call me if you would lik to discuss this in person
Have a great day!:)

Thanks for the insight...
 

blown1500, Thanks for the advice---I appreciate the technical in depth response. But I always thought that ANYTIME that you can lighten up the valve train (especially over the valve where it really counts) that you can run lighter spring pressures, will reduce the chances for valve float, and/or any other problems and that it is beneficial no matter what the RPM level ? :)

Hey KAAMA,
The lighter you can make things and retain sufficient strength, the better. Here, however, deminishing returns for money spent comes into play quickly. If you could design a valve train and make a special spring for each application, you would make gains in efficiency. Problem is, you only have so many choices unless money is no object. Most of our boat applications require a spring that is stronger than we absolutely must have and the steel retainer instead of titanium is usually just as good for less money-a lot less. The difference at the prop shaft, fuel pump, or wear on the engine parts is negligable in most instances. We always recommend on the safe side, but if the safe side can also be cheaper, that is what we recommend. If you want the last horsepower-YOU CAN'T BEAT CUBIC DOLLAR$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

Blown1500... I am curious why you say "Most of our boat applications require a spring that is stronger than we absolutely must have" . I am curious because I am installing heads on short blocks which have valve springs that are slightly lighter than recommended by the cam mfgr. 105# seat vs 115 recommended and 305 open vs 315 recommended. Is there a necessity in marine applications to over spring? I figured I was close enough for a 5000 rpm application. If not, I may need to do some shimming.

BT :cool:

That helps a lot Ambusher. My engine guy said the same thing. These are not new springs and I was planning to reuse. He checked them out for me and they are in great shape. They are not that old either, so I want to reuse. If I take what you said, 10-15# lost after use, which exactly matches what he said, and add it to my numbers. I have the right springs.

Thanks much,

BT :cool:

Blue Thunder,
What I said about our springs beeing more than absolutely necessary refers to the manufacturer's recommended springs.
To be safe, do what they say!!!!! You may have lightweight componnents that would allow the use of softer springs at the max rpm you intend to run. If you loose any tension, you miscalculated mass, or if you overrev just a little you have disaster!!!!:( It is highly recommended you run some insurance-which the cam manufacturer has calculated for you. There are so many factors, ramp speed, rocker ratio, valve weight, the rest of the valve train weight, etc. you need a degree in physics AND a test bench with strobe to verify your theories.
KAAMA, if you check wiht the serious racers- Winston Cup, for instance, they run just enough valve spring, just heavy enough piston, rod, etc. etc. etc. But they have LOTS of time in engineering-almost all have at least one resident engineer-LOTS of time experimenting and deep pockets to bury the mistakes.
The rest of us must rely on the manufacturers and experience-just sneak up on the ultimate set up or you may have more parts than you started with:D

blown1500, Bobby Daniels, Ambusher,-----all you guys are from "NC"-----most would think this stands for "North Carolina" I think it stands more for "NASCAR Country"--------the land of engines! Thanks for your advice and all your input!

Mark/KAAMA