InnerCooler ?
 

Reading another thread on blowers and sizes and the subject of innercoolers was brought up so I thought I would start another thread on a question I have often thought about.

At what boost level is a innercooler really needed or required?

For this discusson lets say a 540 with 8.0cr and running a 1071 Littlefield blower. Dart aluminum heads (Older 320s with some work) and CMI Elbow top exhaust. Currently runs right at 6.5psi for boost.

Big blower - big motor - 320 heads - good exhaust - low boost.

I say NO.

but (with a cooler) at a given octane rating, you could go up to 8 pounds on the same gas with the same timing and have the same "safety margin" that you have as it sits now - at least that is my opinion.

Tomcat and 1500 would be able to argue the merits (or DEmerits) of that opinion with their experiences and recent tests...

Thank you for your opinion. I really think I have some "safety margin" currently. Not sure how much. :D

I thought that the denser the charge, the greater the advantage for the HP. So, by adding the intercooler at the same boost levels will result in higher HP's - no other changes.

Through your thinking... The denser charge means a cooler air which allows more boost with the same melt down point in our pistons. e.g. detonation point. What will it gain will be an equaton based on the efficiency of your blower in relation to its production of heat. Some say centrifical produce less heat per lb of boost that the roots style - also related to the size of the blower (6-71, 8-71... or M-1, M-3...)

I would think that you should go to the manufacturer of the blower to find out the efficiency rating at any given boost level and start making the equation based on the size of the intercooler's ability to remove heat.

I would have to look it up, but my set-up is a Prochager (height restrictions) where they gave me this formula to develop the necessary point of diminishing returns.

Too much heat per lb of boost... Add a lb of boost loose a potion of air density where these two numbers eventually counteract / eliminate each other. The efficiency of the system is what we are looking for - boost over the normal atmospheric pressure.


Red Racer

Red Racer
 

All I can say is YEP to a point. An innercooler really is not worth it on LOW boost applications for the money in my opinion. (Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong) I consider my set up low boost for the parts I have assembled. I did a fair amount of reading :rolleyes: before I set this motor up. I wanted the look of the Roots and height is an issue (must have rear deck sun pad for wife :p ) so I went with a big blower and low boost. I am very happy with it. I sometimes just wonder how much more without an innercooler. I can fit a whipple innercooler manifold $$$$. I am just looking for some real life expierance on the board from those running or have set up blowers with no innercoolers. :)

No problems here...

I decided to go with the centrifical and remotely installed the intercooler. I have a small 21' Cole openbow with an 18" free board, so my clearance is nil....

I'll be listening to see what comes out of this thread... I keep mine down below 5lbs because my block still uses 8.9cr cast pistons. Or until it blows and I get a new one (strocked 454 up to a 540)... Next year's Xmas list. :D :D

red,

an intercooler will present a flow restriction to the intake path. Typically one will lose 1 to 2 pounds of boost thru a cooler due to a combo of the restriction AND the more dense charge. The denser charge, though, is more conducive to power production.

Adding a cooler with no other changes at all will usually result in a slight drop in horsepower except in cases where the charge heat was already bad enough to require drastic retardation of ignition timing, etc..

A cooler will allow MORE blower output for a given longblock configuration. If you add a cooler and speed up the blower to see the same boost as before, you are really blowing a couple pounds more than before then cooling it back to the original pressure. THIS gives more power cause it is more charge.

If you wish to see the effect of cooling the charge vs horsepower, then go see TomCats intercooler test results. HE tested the motor with NO cooling water vs cooling water thru the cooler. You'll see that YES you get horsepower from cooling, but not what you'd expect. Horsepower comes from BOOST. BOOST makes HEAT. gotta control HEAT or motor won't live.

also, you can't get 540 from a 454. gotta start with a 4.5" bore which you usually can't get out of a 454 block. Go with a 502 or if you got cash burning a hole, go with a 4.5" bore, 4.375 stroke tallblock with long rods...

luck to all.

I agree with mcollinstn - What an intercooler does is give you a choice.

Assuming a compressor efficiency of 60% (good for a Roots style blower) and the boost level you mentioned, the blower will add about 100F to the air entering the intake manifold. Depending on the temperature of the ambient air and the amount of fuel evaporated in the blower itself you could easily reach 170F in the intake manifold.

If you have currently have a safety margin with 170F, you would have an even bigger safety margin with an intercooler that drops the temperature to say 100F. If you wanted to you could then change pulleys and trade some of that safety margin for more horsepower. The intercooler gives you the choice.

For a good article on adding the new Blower Shop intercooler check out the March 2003 Family and Performance Boating. If you can't find the magazine I reviewed the article in a thread in this section.

I just had to get in too. I agree with tomcat and mcollinstn.
I just did a Pro Charger on the dyno and we made one pull without the intercooler water. Power droped about 40 on a 900hp engine. The lower quality gas you get and the way your combustion chamber work help dictate how much you need the intercooler. I generally use one, but it is not always necessary and they do restrict flow.
Have a GREAT day:D :D

Just bringing it back TTT and wanted to say thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I thinkI have read all of tomcats innercooler posts several times actually. Good info in there. I know innercooled is better but I know there are a number of non-innercooled blowers running out there. I think I may look in to hooking up a temperature probe in the manifold so I can know for sure what my intake temperature runs. Just a temporary set up with thermocouple probe and VOM for testing should work. Since as mcollinstn said you got to control the heat to make it live and that is what I am after really. :hothead: :D

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but, I am on the fence in regards to removing my Superchiller. This would be for the same reason as Paradigm indicated, keeping the hatch intact without going to a scoop. Presently have the hatch built up (raised) to accomodate the height of everything and want to put it back to normal. My situation is slightly different. I am running a 496 Stroker, single 1050, Superchiller, B&M 250, 5 lbs boost, and 8.4:1 compression. Removing the chiller would increase boost as there would be less restriction. Increase boost to what, I don't know.
I could install a larger blower pulley to get it back to 5 lbs or preferably leave it as is with the pulley that's already on there.
I understand that I will be removing my safety margin (chiller), but will I be in trouble if I do? How much heat am I generating at 5 lbs and would bringing it down to maybe 4 lbs, less chiller, even be a reasonable option?
Any replies are appreciated.
Thanks, Russ

RLW,
If you take off the intercooler, be sure to check ALL EIGHT (8) spark plugs. You may have one or two in trouble and the rest look fine. I like to run two small carbs, like maybe 450 Holleys instead of any big carb. Call Holley or look in their catalogue and they recommend two caarbs to even the fuel distribution. Jegs had the carbs new for about $175.00 each!! There tricks you can play with these to get better fuel economy, too!! Blower tops aren't very expensive, either. Think about it!!

RLW:

You could go to a whipple intake with built in innercooler but they are not cheap. That is the only way I could innercool because the hatch will not be cut or I will be cut off if you get my drift. ;)

I spoke with Brad Nickerson and he said No Problem removing chiller. As stated above, it is the higher boost levels that are the concern. My 5 lbs of boost plus the 8.4:1 compression ratio would yield an effective compression ratio of approximately 11:1 .
I am told, that compression ratio (11:1) is the cut off point for pump gas (92 octane).
I like the idea of the Whipple chiller but don't want to spend any more money than necessary. Just use what I have. I am contemplating mounting the carb sideways to improve fuel distribution.

Sounds like me. I am actually running less than 8:1 cr so I'm not far from that 11:1 FCR you are. I think it depends on how hard and long you run. I know I am OK on short runs my concern is if I run it hard for to long a period. Also desert heat during the summer. I have ran it at 4500rpm for about 20mins no problem but never that long WOT. Wife wouldn't let me anyway. I probably don't need the extra power or safety margin from meltdown I would just be gong through Bravo's then! Not counting the fuel! :hothead: