Kaama Surface Drives Slow to Plane
 

I have recently become an accidental boat owner and need a little help/advice. I've inherited a 1986 Formula 357 Kaama. My previous boating experience was with merc outdrives or true inboard V drives with big props. This boat has the Kaama Surface Drives with those funky little weird shaped props.

OK, here's the question (finally!) When I open the throttles both engines rev smoothly at about 5200 rpm but the boat seems to take a long time to get on plane. I'm keeping the drives down until she reaches plane speed. Then it feels like the props finally grab and she planes and levels off. The rpms drop to about 3500 when this happens. They pick up when I raise the drives to the "cruise" or "max" positions.

Is it normal to take so long to plane? Is it normal for the props to "grab" when planing occurs? Am I supposed to raise the outdrives before starting my run? Is there a book I can use to learn about the Kaama modifications and operating techniques?

Any and all ideas warmly welcomed.

Doc

Also, how do I check out the engines to determine age, originality, etc. Is there a number I can check via the Internet?

Cuda just bought a Kaama boat. He has the takeoff procedure. Seems that tabs and trim position matter and they aren't either one full down.

I tried to respond to your P.M., but your box was full. I could tell you more with more info. (i.e.: engines, props, gear ratios,etc.)

I am curious about the "funky little weird shaped props". Most of these things spin pretty big wheels compared to Bravos. Do the props not bite at all as you throttle up, or do you just shove it up and wait for them to catch???

Also, I think I have someone in the market for your boat. (Don't get too excited -- I didn't know how much you wanted to get rid of it, so he has no idea of price:rolleyes: ) Nevertheless, he might be more interested if I could tell him more.

Sorry about that PM being full. I travel a lot and have been away.I've got the most recent survey of the boat, including a bunch of pictures, being put on disc so I can email it to anybody interested. Unfortunately, my computer guy had heart trouble Monday and is in the hospital. Planned to video on Sunday. 8 1/2 inches of rain! Golf ball hail. Road to Marina flooded and closed.

I'm having piss for luck with this project. That's how I got the boat in the first place...piss for luck.

About those props. They're steel and instead of being rounded on the ears they come to sharp points. I mean, a really big Ninja could throw these things for weapons. They are four bladed and the local guys who own similar boats tell me they are about a thousand bucks apiece. I own another boat with mercruiser outdrives and those props are larger diameter than on the Kaama.

The engines are carbed 502's. I had them checked and run by two independent racing motor builders before running them and was told by both that they are strong and reliable. As for gear ratios, I haven't got a clue.

The take off goes like this. Surface drives down, tabs up. Advance throttles from 1000 rpm to full throttle over approx three seconds. Boat begins to move. Nose goes up. Musst stand up but even then cannot see over nose. Continue to spin at 5200, boat slowly gathering speed. This goes on for what seems like 15 or 20 seconds. Nose drops and props seem to grab because rpms drop to about 3500 even tho throttles are full open.

At this point I raise the tabs to "Cruise" level and if I keep on blasting full ahead I'll raise em to "Max" level and begin to trim out. Rooster tails from Hell ensue. Meter is inaccurate so I don't know exact speed. Based on my previous experiences on boats and motorcycles combined with the fact that I'm passing cars on the 55MPH adjacent roadway, I'd guess I'm doing about 60.

Haven't been able to trim appropriately however, as the port tab will not lower fully. Haul out and repair scheduled for next week.

Thanks in advance for any advice you may lend.

Doc

Are you going to be at Tickfaw?

More than likely.

As for the getting on plane part, I'm stumped. If you ever get the chance to put up pics, I wanna see pics of the props. If you want to know the dia. & pitch, you can pull them off and it will be stamped on the back side of the hub.

Your friends are probably right about the prices on them give or take $250.00 ea. I am tempted to run over there for a look, but I guess I'll wait for the pics.

I have never seen a Formula set up with Kaamas. What kind of trim tabs are on it?

Should be big K-planes on a 357.

Hi DOC!!!!

welcome back from your travels

i've been checking my mailbox every day for a video;)

here's the plan, since your a doctor, fix your computer friends heart, then he can send me the pics, take your boat to florida and make the video!!!!!!!in the sunshine, maybe I'll make the video with you .......:D


Cuda has a post in the formula section on how he planes off his 302 (although a shorter boat)

I would put some tab down to help get on plane. but what i have read, this is typical of the surface drives, spinning up, then grabbing as you accellerate..... just watch the start of the big cats in the offshore races sometime. they have surface drives.
takes them forever..

I might feather the throttle at say 3000 to 4000 untill hooking up, then hammer it. but who am i to talk, I only want to BUY ONE that I've seen a video on;)

the good news is those engines are making power to 5200!!!!!

post another question on the tech section titled "what engines do I have" and you will get lots of help on where to look, what to look at, and then what you have.

See ya SOON!!

I put the drives a quarter inch above idle, tabs at -1. Give it the gas. The engines will rev up, then you feel the props grab. Gas it some more, and when you get up on a plane, back off the throttle, raise the drives and tabs. I don't think it takes any longer than a conventional drive, but the engines spinning at high rpms makes it seem that way. Bow rise is minimal, my 242 with twin alpha's rises more.

Next time you run the boat, try "rocking" it on plane. With drives and tabs down full, give it throttle. You don't need to be at 5200 RPM, the props may grab better at a lower RPM. The boat will move, trailing a big stern wave behind it. Now comes the "rocking" part. Rather than bogging along waiting for the boat to accelerate, back off the throttles suddenly and wait for that big stern wave to start pushing you, then hit the throttles again. The wave pushes the boat and covers the props so if you time this right it will help push you onto plane and make the props grab at the same time. You may find that you have to do this 2-3 times in succession to get onto plane.

I once tried some four blade cleavers on my boat. I couldn't get onto plane unless I "rocked" the boat.

Hi Doc

I've been thinking about my cocky comment above for a while

By no means did I intend to make light of your friends heart condition.

First and foremost, I hope he is doing well and is on to a quick recovery.

Sincerely
Rob

I don't run Kaama drives, but I do run a cat with very high drives.

When coming on plane if I go full throttle I will hit the rev limiters and go nowhere. (I would make a hell of a big blender though!)

In my experience, getting on plane is a matter of getting the feel for the boat and how much the props can take before they break loose. In my case I go to about 3,200 RPM where the props begin to slip. I hold there for a couple seconds till the props catch up, then increase the throttles slowly as the bow comes down. It's a matter of not using enough throttle to break loose, but at least enough to keep the forward momentum going. With my cat, the K-Planes make little to no difference when planing.

This may or may not work for your boat. When I ran Hydo Q-IV's it was near impossible to get my boat on plane. No matter how I tried.

I guess it's just a matter of getting to know your boat and experimenting with different throttle and tab settings until you find the best combination.

Good Luck!!

Jeff:)

jbrauer -- these break loose as soon as you get past an idle. It is pretty bizzarre.:crazy:

I would consider checking that full down is actually full down.

Normally surface piercing props need to be mostly submerged to take off.

That's about how the Q-IV's were on my boat. Let's see a picture of the props and transom.

Hey all,
This is my first posting on O.S.O.

I bought a 30' Wellcraft Excalibur Cat with Kaama Surface drives last September(03) Ran it twice before boating season screeched to a halt.
The 2nd time out, got the ol gal up on plane.. it took for ever to plane out. She doesnt have trim tabs.. Sounds like it wouldnt make much difference anyway. She acted very squirrely once up, very erratic tipping from side to side and difficult to steer straight.

Had a problem with starboard engine over revving at launch and also once on plane. Come to find out, the dipstick that owned the boat previously had two different gear ratios between the left and right drives. Ive got one drive apart that has the proper gears 1:1.3 and now need to find a set for the "bad side"... Anybody know where I can pick these up? Nobody around here has ever seen such a drive let alone has parts for them.

Any help would be appreciated.

Todd
[email protected]

Todd welcome
(this is rambunctious lgged on at waterfoul's)

Cuda is the kaama expert . He has a Formula 302 with Kaamas. find him on general section or more frequently on the formula section. my understanding is the internal parts are very common. but if you can't find what you need locally, Team Archer in California has parts and repairs Kaamas. they have some of teh original empoyees of Betty Cook's Kaama company.

one other thing to verify while your drives are apart. the rubber boots wear out and are sometimes a long lead item from team archer. Cuda has a full "documentary" on how to change the boots. check them and replace if you have any dowbts. they are expensive. but, the internal parts I understand are not.

can't beat the roostertail of the surface drive.



good luck, welcome to OSO.

Ramb

Todd welcome
(this is rambunctious lgged on at waterfoul's)

Cuda is the kaama expert . He has a Formula 302 with Kaamas. find him on general section or more frequently on the formula section. my understanding is the internal parts are very common. but if you can't find what you need locally, Team Archer in California has parts and repairs Kaamas. they have some of teh original empoyees of Betty Cook's Kaama company.

one other thing to verify while your drives are apart. the rubber boots wear out and are sometimes a long lead item from team archer. Cuda has a full "documentary" on how to change the boots. check them and replace if you have any dowbts. they are expensive. but, the internal parts I understand are not.

can't beat the roostertail of the surface drive.



good luck, welcome to OSO.

Ramb

doright. Although I have a cat with kaamas and no tabs, i typically take off slow, ratchett up the sticks, gradually take it up to 3000-3200max...........and wait.

The props should break (aerate) right about 3K, for this to work, if not the boat will never come on plane. Takes a while, but then they will grab.

I've tried the "hammer down" approach and it does not buy you much, if anything.......... probably not all that healthy for the drivetrain.



Bob

Proper? This depends on the gear ratio that is right for your boat/engine/prop combination. Kaamas came with several different gear ratios.

As far as where to find the gears, I have heard (hearsay only) that they can be found at most part supply houses (non-boating). Good luck.

PS -- The boots can also be repaired if they are not in too bad of a condition. Three years ago I had one with a hole in it, and had it repaired at a tire repair place. (I was skeptical, but everyone said it would work and I needed a quick fix to get back into the water.) It has worked fine and sealed tight ever since. :cool:

I haven't had to look for any, but what I hear is all the gears and such can be bought at non marine suppliers. If you need a boot, get in touch with Archer. They are back ordered right now, I contacted them a couple weeks ago and put my name on the list when they come in.

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the input.. I just finished (about 30 minutes ago) splitting the Starboard side drive's tail section which is the side that is over-revving. Bad news (I guess). The gears are exactly the same at the Port side. 26T input, 23T output. Good news is that these things are a breeze to get apart. Pretty simple on the insides.

I used the word "proper" because on the last outing, which was basically the first time up on plane, the port engine was pushing 4900-5000+ RPM and the Starboard was spinning well into the high 6000's when I quickly caught the tach and backed it off.. Once up on plane, I had to back the starboard throttle to about 50% to match the RPMs of the Port engine.

My first thought was drive gear ratios mis-matched. They are stamped differently on the case tags but who know how many times they were changed since 1985 when built new

This boat was originally equipped with 526 C.I.D. 4 bolt engines. They were shelled years ago I guess. When I bought it last september, it came with a set of newly rebuilt 420 HP 454's. Both engines run great, sound great and havent been a problem *(yet). I also have a "spare" set of 454's that came with it. They look OK to, but probably need to be checked out thoroughly.

It came with 4 blade cleavers that I was told were 27 pitch. Iv'e looked for any identification but only found a small stamping by the front side of the hub: Port is stamped "KME 994" Starboard "KME 995" They are counter rotating and mean as hell looking.

What are the chances that the BW-Twindisc transmissions have different gearing ratios? I'm not sure what to think now.

Any ideas?

Todd

Hey Todd...how about some pics of that kaama drive apart. I'd like to see what's inside one.
Sounds like maybe your throttle cables need to be adjusted if you had to back off on your port engine to synchronize the rpm's for both engines??

jim:)

sorry that should have been starboard engine::o

Hey Jim,
Throttle cables are fine.. That was the first thing I checked last year prior to getting the boat wet. At idle position, perfect, nearly closed. At WOT both carbs are as open as they can get. Both reach WOT at the same throttle position.

I'l try to remember and bring my digital camera home from the office tomorrow and get some good pics. It's really a simple gear box set up.. Easy as hell to get off and apart. Having a hydraulic press makes getting the shafts out a piece of cake. I tried the heating case to 225 thing and tapping the prop shaft... That didnt work at all.. about 2 minutes with a press and the shafts with main bearings pop right out. (Did that this morning)

Todd

I guess you better ck. the transmissions, if they are the twin disc ck. the oil level?

Hey Jim,
I dont specifically remember having a low fluid level in a transmission, but it's possible. I'l check that this weekend when I can spent some "quality time" under the engine hatches. Are you thinking slippage?

I would think if one is slipping that bad, the fluid would be burnt to hell?

Or all over your bilge.
Don't ask.:rolleyes: :(

If they are Twin Disc 502 trans it will only cost about $1600 to rebuild it. Pull out the dipstick and see if it is black and stinks but the disc kit is $800 from twin disc. Thanks to Cuda and Ice I found a guy in Deland that was rebuilding but he might be out of business.