Engine Failed/ Question is? Long
 

Hey guys a friend of mine ran into some problems and I'll
share the story best I know.

He has a single engine 29' PowerQuest, had a real nice
no exspense spared built 540ci dynoed at 550hp.
When he bought the boat a year or so ago it had
the cutler fuel injection on it for those that are familiar
with it. Only down fall I had seen to the Engine in
my opinion.

Well because of the constant re-mapping of the
fuel sytem, he had enough and wanted to go back to
a traditional carb and intake.
So he called the marine ( mechanic ) in Hudsonville
to get a quote on a Carb and intake. Turns out
the mechanic had just the answer for him. He had a
used B&M 250 blower with a single Dominator carb.

Short while later he was excited and having it installed.
While installing it Mechanic also said he thought he heard a lifter noise and that he should get it checked out.

Being a mechanic
would you install a blower if it had lifter noise? Why wouldn't
you fix it, if you have 20 plus years in the marine mechanic
field?

Got it back, took it out to Lake Michigan and lost 500 rpm
and it was 1 mile and hour slower than it was with the cutler
injection.
He asked some of our opinions, and we suggested
timing may be off and or jetted wrong. It also smelled
rich in fuel and was turning the back of his boat black.
Also the boat was back firing when coming of plane.

He called the mechanic and questioned him on the timing.
Mechanic said he set it 8 degrees at an idle, My friend said
to the mechanic he was told it should be set at full advanced a 30 degrees.

Mechanic got defensive and said he has 20 plus years
in the marine business and that is how he always does it.
Also stated he didn't like cranking the engine up to full
advance for fear of clasping the garden hose.

Frustrated my friend called another of his buddys and asked
him to bring his timing light over. They cranked it up to
full advanced and found it to only be at 18 degrees full
advanced. So they changed it to 30 degrees.

Took it out to the lake picked up 500 rpms and 3 miles
and hour over what he had with the cutler system.
But the engine still backfired while coming off plane.

Called the mechanic, let him know what they found
with the timing. Mechanic seemed a little embarrased
and said well I guess I need a better water supply.
Also mentioned the back firing and the mechanic
said to bring it back and he would try a different carb
on it.

So they did, now lets back up a minute.
My friend also dicovered that his pyrometer was removed
and pluged off. Mechanic said when he took the cutler
system off that he removed the pyrometer to and that he didn't need it.

So he gets the boat back and heads to the lake
with it. While idling down the channel the thing droped
a valve! The engine only had a 100 hours on it before
the blower install and 4 hours after the blower.

Pressure checked the exhaust manifolds and they are
fine. Called the mechanic he feels he did nothing wrong.
Questioned the mechanic on why he removed the pyrometer.
Stated to the mechanic had it been in there , they could have
seen it burning down. Mechanic said he can't answer that.
Again why, what was your reason, and again and again
and again I can't answer that.

It sounded like he and legal advice to say no more.

So what are your thoughts did he start to burn it down the
first weekend while running at 18 degrees full advanced?
Or do you think somthing else happened.

Do you think the machanic seen it was getting hot while
installing it, and couldn't figure out how to fix it so removed
the pyrometer? And then told him he had lifter noise?

What are your idea's and thoughts
and how should this be handled, because the mechanic
feels he is in the right?

He got 4 hours out of this setup?

Thanks for any insight

Cougarman

well the timing being low could have killed the intake valves due to heat ,, but comparing a blown (supercharged) motor to a fuel injected one is like apples and dogs ,,he should have picked up a min. of12mph from the injected motor ,,,the whole story is full of mistakes and problems ,,,did the guy give a warranty ??
Alot of shops don't as once it leaves their shop they can't control what is done with their motor ,evenas far as the fuel in it ??
so talk to the builder and get his take on it as he should have water tested and set the timing at least !!! did it melt any pistons ??
I would take it back to him and offer him a chance to make it right
and advise what he tells you (pm me if you like ))

Bobby Daniels
 

The guy just works on his own out of his home.
He used to work for a large operation.
He is a mechanic not an engine builder.

Anyway's I doubt there was a warrenty,
but would you honestly let him rebuild it
with as many things that were wrong already?


The engine was pulled and dropped of
at an engine ( Builders ) not the mechanic
on monday. They said to give them a day
or two before they had it torn down.

As soon as the exhaust manifold were pulled
you could see the valve missing.

Do you really think he would pick up
12 mph on a single engine 29' Power Quest?
I think it was running 68-70 mph with the
injection.

Also wouldn't 18 degrees full advance make
it detnate late? Like on the way out through
the exhaust valves and or in the exhaust?


Cougarman

I tried a blower 454 in my Checkmate the same set up B&M 250 with a single carb had a complete season of HELL! The guy that built it got sick of me calling every weekend and traded me for a carbed 502 and refunded the price of the blower. My take on it is if your going to build a big HP motor say over 500hp you need to go the extra mile and do a dyno pull to be safe then when you get out on the water you have no suprises. Is the builder Offshore Upgrades? He has a fair reputation but when your going for the big power you need someone real good not average.....I'd call Dave wesseldyke or Tom Earhart(locally) to get the combination right or if you want a Road trip Bobby and Blown 1500 have been very helpful to many of us!as far as getting anything out of the builder good luck....I've been bad mouthing RMP for several years becouse of a shi##y rebuild the motor ran 40 min. and it broke a valve spring fought it the complete season and then it puked they wouldn'y do crap for me either even though it was in ther shop about half the summer.

Long story short, I think your friend is out of luck. The only way you can expect a mechanic to garantee a motor is if he sells a complete engine. The valve could have been lost due to half dozen reasons that have nothing to due with the mechanic or blower. He bolted up a used blower on a used motor, he's responsible for the blower working.
BTW, I would consider a dual carb on a 250.
My $0.02,
Gary

Dyno
 

You guessed who.


I didn't think Earhart was doing much building these
days other than turbo engines and alot of dyno
work.


Cougarman

Gary Anderson
 

The builder he took it to also recommended dual carbs
for a number of reasons.

Also mention on bumping up in blower size so that
B&M 250 didn't have to work so hard to feed 540ci.
Creating extra heat etc.

Any thoughts on that? If he went that
route what is his used B&M 250 and domintor worth
for resale?


Cougarman

Money talks.... its a bad time of year for anyone to spend quality time on your stuff but good luck anyway. If the motor was on Toms Dyno the problems should have shown up before he dropped the valve....

I've seen the 250's with carbs for like $1500-$1800. Crazyhorse is runnig those blowers on 502's they run pretty good but with the 540 you might be right on it being a little small.

generaly the low timing will super heat the intake valve ,,and yes on things from stringrays to bullets going to a blower from carb or fuel injection is good for 12mph min or something is wrong
the 250 is a good blower and one 4500 works well it may not have perferfect fuel distribution but its fine and about 6lbs on a 540 ,,,what cam and heads and comp. do you have ??
yes a mega 420 blower B&N would do better and a whipple would do better but unless youve got to be the fastest around you have the good blower ,,, I have mega blowers and innercoolers around if needed but we can fix your motor :D :D

Bobby Daniels
 

I'm not sure what heads and cam he is running.

I do believe it was 10 to 1 compression, which I believe
will be lowered now that he is getting a complete rebuild.

It was dynoed at 550 hp pushing that 29' Power Quest
68 - 70 mph.

The blower was set up for 5 lbs of boost, which
the (mechanic) said would give him an additional
150 hp. Is that valid or not?

Also if he turned it up to 6 lbs of boost as you
suggested how much difference would that be
to the 5 lbs?

How much difference would 6lbs Vs. 5lbs make to
the over all life of his engine? And drive? (bravo)

I know boating is hard on engines, but he likes to
boat alot, not work on them alot.
He needs good power to get that big single engine
moving. But also would like reliability, fast but not the
fastest guy out there.

Just nice balance.

Cougarman

10:1 and 5 lbs boost? Iron or Aluminum heads? The CR is probably too high unless you run REALLY high octane. Sounds like a combination of too much compression, you jetted too lean, and possibly too much advance on the timing.
Did he burn a valve or drop one, ie broken spring or retainer?
Gary

Gary Anderson
 

He has Iron heads, and he was burning premium fuel.

He was figuring it was jetted to rich by the way it smelled?
And by turning his transome black?


Cougarman

IMHO, premium (93 octane) is needed for a 10:1 motor. Add 5 lbs of boost, and you're going to need higher octane than that.
Gary

When blowers & high compression are together motors do not stay together long in a boat. If the motor had that much compression a blower should not have been put on that motor. The motor detonated itself apart. I bet on tear down that there is going to be way more damage that just a valve. Detonation is why it was building no more HP than what is was NA. Timing being off did not help but even if timing was righton the first time, motor had a very short fuse.

110 octane may have detonated in that combo. All else aside that is the problem. Did he have any problems burning center and ground electrodes out of the spark plugs?

I do alot of blower motors with aluim heads to disapate the heat and run 9 to 1 and 8 or so psi but I agree with turbo and vette it was a gernade with iron heads !! and it could not run as turbo said with that much detonation going on .
Get him to get some help on the board in rebuilding it and it will be a screamer ,,,,,:D :D :D

It sounds to me that your mechanic is clueless on boat engines. Especially design.

Mine are weiand 256 with 2x700cfm running 8:1 with a very mild cam on 468CI engines.

You should be running around 30 degrees of advance.

I do not have a pyrometer on my engines but would like to have them. This is critical in knowing if your engines are running too lean or too rich. You could literally dyno in the water by tracking temperature. Makes carb set up much easier.

Your engines were set up for high performance NON-blower use. You really need to change your pistons or heads to get the compression down.

Cougarman-- It sounds like the same grade 8 auto class put hat motor together as the two 461's I bought from your buddy Rich !!
And those only had 10 hrs on them. Ya Right.

Just tell your buddy to Break Out A couple more Thousand, that's what i had to do! Suck doesn't it!

Del Sol
 

I don't know what you have going on, And I really don't
care to be in the middle of it.


I'm simply trying to help a fellow that I feel was mislead
for his own possible lack of knowledge.
Obviously I don't have all the answers either or I wouldn't
be on here asking questions to further my own
knowledge aswell.


Maybe you should take this up with whoever you feel
is responsible. Those engines ran Strong
when he sold them to you. And they were fresh!

You emailed me awhile back and asked a few questions,
but , never said a whole lot. You did say you had torn
one down and found pin floated on you.

Anways I also tried to help you a warned you about
the place you were at. Because ( Kaama ) had some
bad problems with them and I didn't want to see you
get stung.

Also I remember, in another thread you mentioned how
great those engines were, and full fuel, empty, lots of people,
or very few people the boat ran strong. And you said all your
friends wanted to ride on yours all the time now. Instead of there own.

Bottom line I still Believe Wolfie's Compition engines builds
a great engine. Sorry for whatever went wrong with it.
Sometimes things happen.


Best of luck
Cougarman

If that was a jab --then you're pretty thin skinned! If you would have read all my post before you got defensive, you would have saw that i said to' tell your buddy to break out a couple more thousand' because he won't get any help from that guy- (not that i would want it).
I feel sorry for your buddy -- i know what it feels like to pay big money for things and then have to pay again-as do a lot of other people on here--- that's all i said there -- maybe i wrote it wrong ...or you read it wrong. I'm not putting you in the middle of anything.

You mentioned about Wolfies-- I not sure what you people call 'fresh' because he said the same thing when i called and told him the brutal leakdown test results and cylinder scores, before i even started the motors---- he won't build a briggs for me! end of story.

PS. the other shop was great to deal with -- no problems at all

Tell you're buddy good luck with his engine, I hope he rectifies his problems, the people on here are a wealth of knowledge.
Now go take a deep breath and relax.

Dave

Del Sol
 

Your right I read your post wrong, I was in a hurry and On
my way out and interperated a few things wrong.

You have my apologie's and I edited the post above.

I'm sorry for what ever i'll feelings you have, just asking
that you leave me out of it. Call him or Wolfie it you would
like to pursue other avenue's.

As far as the cylinder scores didn't you run an entire
season before, you found the problems? I'm not looking
to argue, just seems I remember they were making
great power for you, but one was using oil. And then you
where going to have head work done and found the piston/pin
problem upon tear down.

Wolfie has alot of BIG Client's, it just puzzels me.
And happy one's for that matter.

Also I don't feel Rich mislead you by the hours. They were left in the boat until a final sale was made so who ever bought
them could hear them run and or perform. You were
satisfied and asked that they be pulled.

Rich sold them to move up to 588ci, not because
of any other reason. He would have eventually had
the same delima you had after a full season.

They made 500hp on the dyno and you got the pair for $12,000
total for a fully accesorized engine if memory serves me.
Seems like a very fair price these days.

This guy paid $5,000 for a used blower, carb and install
for 4 wonderful hours of use.

Once again good luck, sucks to see anybody having
engine problems!

Cougarman

Valve springs
 

Well it was torn down, dropped one valve.

Wrecked the heads and they are ( Iron / merlins )
Looks Like he might be switching to Aluminum.

Checking the compression out for sure to find out what it is.
They are domed, and was told they may be anywhere
from a 9:1, 9.5:1, 10:1.

Block seems to be fine after a magnaflux, but will have
to be bored.

Strange part is the valve springs are broke on
6 out of 8 pistons? What would cause this?


Thanks
Cougarman

It could be weak springs to putting a bigger cam on old springs to detonation that did it ,,he needs to know comp,, 8.75 to 9 to 1 is good and good cam ,,,blown 1500 has a great set of brodix heads 704-574-4020--get a good cam you'll gain the 12 mph just be sure fresh 91 octane gas and 6 to 8 lbs boost ///no thermo,,,
it will fly

Sorry to hear the bad news. New heads, new pistons, new cam...she'll be screaming.

Springs
 

The cam was never changed by the first individual that
did this install.


Wouldn't 8:1 compression be safer for everday
boating?

What kind of power would you expect to make
with 8:1 with 6 lbs of boost?

Or with 8:1 with 5 lbs of boost?


Thanks cougarman

I've had 65 reliable hours.

I'm at 8:1, 4-5 lbs generating 550 HP on 468. Same compression and set up on your 540 would be about 650.

If you are taking the time to do it right Dyno it.

AH ,but that low of compression makes the blower on a heavyeir boat stay in boost more and when I run 8:75 or 9:to 1,,,the motor does more work and uses less fuel and less heat ,and leaves harder ,its just my personal favorite way and works great for me and my friends ,,I really need the whole package to give good advise like weight of boat,cam,heads,piston type ,ect.

you could be safe like merc and their 575 and run 7.5 to 1 and no boost and only 575hp just so you can have a warranty and say you have a supercharged boat ,

12 mph min improvment is normal and the min. any less and you wasted your money on a blower

Carbs
 

Can you better explain the reason for running

2 Carbs VS. 1 Big dominator.

Thanks
Cougarman

The main reason is more even fuel distribution . mianly on the larger blowers the little 250 its not that critical and I often run a 1050 or 950 of corse with indexed power valves and it works great ,,,also the linkage is much better with one carb

we run total air flow and are sure the single carb fits the application ,also :D :D :D

Carbs
 

lost me on this:



Quote: Bobby Daniels

Indexed power valves?

And

we run total air flow and are sure the single carb fits the application ,also :D :D :D



Cougarman

do a search for indexed or refernced power valves and its easy to follow , also you have to size the carb right for the motor ie,468 with one set of heads and cam and boost need one size carb and the same motor with less boost ect may need a larger or smaller carb depending on air flow ,we match the cfm's to the motor :D :D :D

.
 

Seems a little clearer, ( indexed power valves).



Looks like the bore needs to be opened up to
4.600" which I thought he said makes it a 565ci.

8:5 to 1 compression and 5 lbs boost.
Dart aluminum heads............... not sure on the cam.
I think it is a 1050 dominator....

Hp = ?

Not knowing the cam, how much difference is there
between 5 & 6 Lbs with 8:5 to 1 Compression ?


Cougarman

4.25 stroke and 4.600 bore is 565 and 1 lbs of boost will add alittle h.p. more torque and without the variables its hard to predict the H.P.if everything is right with a roots blower of proper size you can get 850 + with 6 lbs more with a whipple or centrifical blower ,the package is the secret really thats what people strive for is the perfect package !!
AFR heads make more hp than darts and you need the right roller cam and fuel and exhaust system
I'm trying to help but its hard to do with out knowing the whole picture :) :) :) :)
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