454 Problem - Advice?
 

Ok...here's the particulars:

1987 454 330hp Alpha 1 w/ 465hrs in a Formula F223LS

I just replaced the exhaust manifolds, risers, thermostat housing, & circ. pump earlier this season. Then, yesterday, I was running out on LI Sound and everthing seemed fine - until I slowed down.

The engine seemed to have a much lower idle (i.e. barely running) and was running rough. However, when I went back up on plane, everything seemed fine. Back at the dock, the motor stalled and I tried to start it, but it only turned over once before the starter couldn't turn it. The motor seemed 'hydrolocked'.

Well, my curiosity got the better of me and I pulled the plugs. Imagine my shock when plugs 1,3,5,&7 were wet. Also, there was water in the oil, but it was not that frothy milky white - yet. Plugs 2,4,6 & 8 were dry and normal. when I got home last night, I drained the block and manifolds, and was able to turn the motor over and expel the water. Then I sprayed two cans of fogging oil and WD-40 into the cylinders. I then turned the motor over to work it in.

So here's the questions - What are the odds that this is just a blown head gasket? Should I be prepared to purchase another set of heads? While I am at it, what is the expected life of an intake manifold in this engine? I also know that there is water in the oil and I need to get it out. However, with an engine that won't run, until I pull the heads, the best I can do is drain the oil. Right?

I religiously flush the motor after every outing and the last set of manifolds/risers lasted for 6 or 7 years. I just want to save the short block if it still has life left in it. With the rain today, it's going to be tough to pull the heads ASAP.

Suggestions? Answers?

Thanx!

-Larry

Since all plugs on your left head are wet most likely not a head gasket but a riser gasket,riser or cracked manifold. If you find its the gasket change the oil and filter run the engine untill it reaches propper temp, change the oil and filter again and you should be good to go!

If you had a blown head gasket or cracked head you wouldn't be getting water into all of the cylinders on the port side. Only the cylinder were the gasket blew or head cracked. You must have a bad gasket between the manifold and riser or the exhaust flapper valve burned out (on that side) allowing water to enter the exhaust manifold and ports. If your compression is good your engine is probably fine. Drain the oil and fill the engine with diesel fuel (from your local gas station) if you aren't going to run it for a week or so.
I would say that you don't have a major problem with your engine. Good Luck!
Dennis Moore

Thanks for the replies!

I was thinking the same thing about the head gasket not being the culprit. But, since I just replaced the risers, and flappers (also the boat has the silent thunder swim platform which means that there are effectively two sets of flappers per side - so no real reversion problem without flappers in tips), I was beginning to think I had a major problem with the head or head gasket.

I will pull the riser off today and see if there are any cracks, and or if the flapper went away.

Hopefully, I'll get is back together today so I can get the motor started and oil changed. Then we'll see if there is still a problem.

Thanks!

-Larry

Dennis whats the deal with the diesel fuel ? I've never heard of that before.....

When you pull the riser off, just look for traces of water or rust marks that go back down into the manifold. Since you didn't specify, I am assuming that you have stock exhaust. What type of riser gaskets did you use? The old style Merc gaskets were thin and had a print-o-seal around all the water passages. These type of gaskets were prone to leaking. The new gaskets look like a waffled silvery metal, almost like an exhaust manifold gasket.

The diesel will cut the emulsified oil out of the engine better than just changing the oil, much better. I've done it several times, but I use half oil and half diesel then run it at idle for a few minutes, then drain the diesel/oil mixture. Then refill with oil.

I agree with everyone on the riser gasket. I lost two engines to those piece of crap stock risers before I switched to imco risers. Mine stock exhaust risers had an additional 3" spacer which ended up making the threaded rods around 14" long. The poor little 3/8 -16 nuts didn't have a chance at making a good clamp force at 14" away and I found leak after leak. Spent a fortune on the riser gaskets as well, and I was using the grey one checkmate mentioned.

ljsmith1 - I am planning on switch to headers over the winter and will be selling my one season old imco (m72) ss risers if you become interested. They are a good fix for riser problems, look good and sound better than stock, but give little if any perf gain. I don't grenade engines anymore since I installed them either. PM me if interested.

Dyno - the diesel fuel is to cut any emulsified oil that may be in the galleys or other parts of the lub system. I generally use kerosine myself.

BT :cool:

BT - Thanks! I may need to take you up on that offer if the $$ is right!

I put in OSCO replacement manifolds and risers because I have had very good luck with them in the past.
The main reason was that I was keeping the motor stock for now, and I run in salt water most of the time. I figured that I would sink in more $$ in two more seasons on a 502 with a Bravo.

Thanks!

-Larry

BTW - I used the riser gaskets that came with the OSCO package. I have the Quicksilver replacements on hand just in case...

-Larry

I hate to bad mouth the competition but the OSCO manifolds have some pretty poor flanges between the manifolds and risers. Take a file and draw it across the flanges a few times (to make sure they are flat) before putting it back together. Using the latest design Mercruiser gaskets will help considerably (they had so many problems they've changed the design of the gaskets a couple of times).
Dennis Moore
www.mooreperformance.org

Thanks Dennis,

Actually, I cleaned the paint off the flanges and checked the flatness with a straightedge before I bolted it all together. Everything seemed ok (i.e. .001 feeler could not slide under). Maybe something loosened up. Come to think of it, I never re-tightened the riser bolts again after the first time out. I figured one heat/cool cycle should do the trick.

I hate to say it too, but the last OSCO riser setup I had used gaskets similar to what Merc is using now - teflon/graphite over SS shimstock. The riser gaskets that came with my current setup were light green and had no SS core. They seemed like a rubberized fiber stock that had me think for a second that they may not be the best material for the job. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Looks like the rain stopped for awhile and I am getting ready to work on it now. I'll stop by again later with any info I have.

Thanks for your help!

-Larry

I even took my spacers and riser to work and milled the machined surfaces flat to make sure. Resulted in more leaks and more problems. The problem with mine was not the surface finish, but the amount of cast iron (weight) the long threaded studs had to handle. A little side load from some rough romping, which I do often, will result in a puked gasket/seal. Take my word for it. Not sure which risers you have though. Some risers are not like mine and have short studs with the nut only 1/2" or so above the manifold surface. Do you have a pic lj?

BT :cool:

Well....The verdict is in.. UGH!

Did a compression test first:

#1 140 psi
#3 140 psi
#5 45 psi
#7 125 psi

#2 125 psi
#4 130 psi
#6 120 psi
#8 130 psi

As you can see cylinder #5 is kinda lowww..

Pulled the riser off and saw rust/water inside the manifold. Gasket looked ok, but I replaced it with a new Merc gasket.

Pumped out oil and changed filter, put plugs back in, and started her up. Ran ok, but a little rough - especially at idle. Then stopped motor and immediately pulled #1,#3,#5, & #7 plugs again. Imagine my amazement when I see water pouring out of the #5 cylinder! #1, #3, & #7 plugs were dry this time.

So, here's what I think happened:
Head gasket let go on cyl #5 and when engine stopped or slowed to idle, allowed water backup through the exhaust valve and into the manifold, thus wetting other plugs on the same side.

I hope the head isn't cracked. So, this week I am pulling both heads off, and at a bare minimum, getting a valve job. Hopefully, I will be able to get away with minimal expense. I blew out all the water and fogged the crap out of it so the cylinder won't rust. I also drained the block again and the oil.

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it.

-Larry

454 Problem - Update
 

Well, it's bad enough that the head gasket let go and the inside of my engine looks like cream cheese. It's even worse when all you have is one more headbolt to loosen and the head is so rusted that not one socket, metric or otherwise, will grab onto it.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how I am to get this bolt out? It is recessed a bit so it is impossible to grab with any vise grip. I thought about welding a grade 8 bolt to it with my MIG welder, but the weld is unlikely to be very strong.

Is the only solution to use an oxy-acetylene torch to cut it off?? I don't want to ruin the head if I can prevent it.

Arrgh!

The bolt in question in the picture is directly above the engine mount.

Hellllpp...

-Larry

Cream Cheese anyone?

ttt

If you want that head bolt out.
Try the Craftsman 'Bolt-Out'.
They really work.
You have to buy an entire kit for $49.99
Item # 52162
Good Luck!

There are special duty sockets availabe on the market which are designed to cut into the head and grab harder the more you pull. They come in various sizes for wheel nuts etc. They work on dam near anything as long as you buy the "good" ones which are real hard and have very sharp flutes forged into them.

That is some fugly stuff lj. Maybe the special bolt remover tool along with some heat to stretch the bolt before applying torque. A wack with a hammer never hurts either.

Any pics of the exhaust manifold chambers?

BT :cool:

you can also try and use a 12pt socket in either metric or standard that sever so slightly smaller then the bolt head and pound it on with a hammer.......thats one of the ways we used to take off the wheel lock nuts that customers forgot to leave us keys for! :D

You just described the Bolt-Out.

Re: 454 Problem - Update
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ljsmith1
[B]Well, it's bad enough that the head gasket let go and the inside of my engine looks like cream cheese. It's even worse when all you have is one more headbolt to loosen and the head is so rusted that not one socket, metric or otherwise, will grab onto it.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how I am to get this bolt out? It is recessed a bit so it is impossible to grab with any vise grip. I thought about welding a grade 8 bolt to it with my MIG welder, but the weld is unlikely to be very strong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

You will probably have better luck if weld another nut on top. You can weld it through the top and get better penetration than trying to weld a bolt on. Just another method that has worked for me in the past. Good luck.

If you decide to weld, make sure that the gas line is plugged and there is no gas in the bilge!! :eek: Having a fire extinguisher on hand would be a good idea, too. Remember, the fuel vapors will settle in the bilge, and one spark from the welder landing down there could mean "boom". I've seen it happen before.

Nice looking cappucino machine there. :crazy: Been there - good luck with it!

Had the same bolt problem with an old 454 I had. I spent half a day with a hammer and cold chisel and got the bolt head down to clean (non rusted) metal. Then I grabed my metric and standard impact sockets and found one that almost fit. I then beat the socket onto the bolt and it came right out.

Ron

I have used the trick of welding a nut onto broken studs/bolts. Just get a good grade 8 nut, not a cheapie. I think the welding heat expands the part and helps loosen things up.

I have also hammered 6 point metric impact sockets onto rounded fasteners. Harbor freight carries impact sockets with fluted corners, that grab the bolt away from the corner and work well on rounded bolt heads. The Craftsman Bolt-off sounds like a goody I need to check out, too.

Good Luck!
Bulldog

454 Head Bolt - Update
 

Well...I took the suggestion of the Craftsman Bolt-Out sockets, and I went out and purchased the impact set for $49.99. Following the set's instructions, I placed the smallest socket that would fit over the rusted head. I then applied the impact wrench to it with about 600 lb-ft of reverse force...and...zzzzziiiiipp...the Bolt-out socket flutes stripped away, and the head bolt remained firmly in place (albeit a little more chewed up). Another socket that was a little bigger - same thing.

I then tried the hammer-on standard socket approach. All I got was two split sockets and a sliced knuckle. I tried the propane torch, hammer & chisel...still stubbornly the bolt remained. Hmm...maybe the head bolt is hardened - duhhh...

It was starting more and more to look like I was going to have to drag out the Oxy-Acetylene torch and risk blowing myself up...until I got a brainstorm...D-R-E-M-E-L. Could it work? Would it have the balls to beat this thing? Would I need MORE POWER!?

Well, I started with the reinforced 1" diameter cutting wheels and I proceeded to delicately dice the top of the bolt head-just like on TV. Pie piece after pie piece, sparks and more sparks. Then, I took the cold chisel and baby sledge and proceeded to bust up the head into little itty bits. Wouldn't you know it? In about 1/2 hr and very little sweat, I was finally able to remove the bolt. And I didn't even blow myself up!

And presto! the cylinder head is now separated off the engine. Sure enough, the head gasket shows the tale of a nearby water passage seal letting go and right into cylinder #5.

What a great forum this is to get ideas! I appreciate the help that everyone gave me.

Regards,

-Larry

Hmmm...cappuchino? My wife might like this flavor.....

PS- I will post a picture of the bastard bolt as soon as I get a chance. I think I will frame it...

Persistance wears resistance! Good work lj. Now to the fun part, making it run again. :)

BT :cool:

Persistance! How true!

I've never let myself be beaten by a machine...well, not that often anyway. Hang in there m'man, you'll win.

Brian

Here's.........the bolt!
 

Here is the stupid bastard bolt that almost caused me to lose my mind. I am going to frame the damn thing...

Now off to the machine shop I go...

-Larry

454 Problem -Update #3
 

Well...news not so good from the machine shop. #5 exhaust valve seat is practically gone. It looks like the previous manifolds were on a bit too long because water started to collect in the #5 and #6 exhaust ports, causing some nasty rusting. So much so, that the machinist feels that if he cuts into the head to replace the seat on the #5, he may go very close, if not into, the water jacketed area. He also feels that the other head (in better shape), may not be worth dumping $225 into for the valve job.

Here's my dilemma now...Where can I get a pair of stock 454 heads that will work on my engine (1987 454 MAG Alpha 1)? The shop quoted me $495 each - new. Can I do better? The engine has 465hrs on it and I don't want to dump allot of $$ into it if I plan to re-power in about 2-3 seasons.

I have looked in a lot of places on the net, but I want to hear about some experiences/recommendations from the folks on the forum.

Thanks!

-Larry

I may be able to help a boating brother out.
 

Larry, I have a set of brand new BB chevy heads from a crate motor that I simply unbolted and shelved because I bolted a set of Merlins on my 502. They are of the 'non-adjustable' valvetrain variety. I'm not sure on the compatibility with the earlier blocks but I'm damn sure one of our boating brothers on this forum does. Let me know.

Sincerely,
Brian Kamrath

Buy you a set of rectangular port heads and an aluminum intake to fit the heads. It will really wake up that 330. I have a set that I had on an 1988 330 for sale but not sure what it would cost to ship them that far. I will sell the heads for $600.00.

If those are the peanut oval port Mark IV heads I have a set that are in good shape that I'd let go cheap. PM me if you're interested. The Gen V or VI heads will not work.

Bob


Just went back and looked at the pictures. That appears to be the heads you have. The ones I have came off of a '90 freshwater engine that was running perfectly. Probably just freshen the valve job and they'd run great. I'll check them when I get to the shop tomorrow.

Wow, lotsa heads for sale here. I too have 2 sets of heads that came on my 340hp long blocks when I bought them. Mark 4s oval ports. They have 20hrs or less since refresh. I had alum edelbrock heads I used instead. I am going to auction them on ebay along with the imco risers to raise cash for some headers. Let me know if you are interested.

Dave

Dave and Bob..

Please PM or email me when you get a chance. Let's talk.

[email protected]

Thanks!

-Larry

Larry, what ever you do dont buy new heads at the price and dont put the little P-nut ports back on if you like going fast. There are lots of good big oval port heads out there like the 049's put a set of big valves in them and then when you rebuild the motor in 2-3 seasons you have a good set of heads long as your not gona try and make 600+ na horses. Rag's