Hook in Bottom of Outlaw
 

Does anyone have or have a hook or had one removed on their hull. My mechanic discovered a substantial hook right under each trim tab on both sides of the boat and while this looks klike it was put there intentionally, it sure seems to account for the reason that I can't get to 5,000 rpm's and am not able to break the 70 mph mark.
I was advised to have it taken out and should probably see a 10% gain in speed since it would loosen up the bow, relieve drag and probably bring up the rpm's.

1998 Baja Outlaw 29'


Any advice out there?

My 97' didn't have the hook
your talking about.
My 98' has the hook your talking
about.

This "wedge" I'm going to call it
is between the chine and outer strake,
probably not more than a foot long.

My 97' would porpose slightly at cruise,
my 98' doesn't.

I have seen photos of my boat running
at full speed, the area in question is
out of the water, the water is breaking
at the outer chine.

If you can focus in on my avitar, you'll
see what I mean.

Here's a larger pix:http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=44449

So, I doubt that's the problem.

What's the power ?
( usually, 454 mag's will get you over 70)

jt

I have 502's in it and on the best day, barely hit 70mph with 26" Bravo's. The 25 Mirage's are annoying as hell as they blow out. I was advised to get the wedge removed. It just feels like the bow plows water right now even when I'm completely trimmed out and my RPM's are at 4600 at best with less than 1/4 of tank of fuel. Were you able to correct the porposing with your trim tabs? Anyway, it will not cost me anything to get this done as I have a friend at a performance shop.
Thoughts?

I have a 30' Checkmate that had about .125 of hook. I had all the hook removed with nothing but good results. Would do it again without hesitation.

*******
 

Where was the hook? Was it toward the keel or between the chine and the outer strake. both side, or one? What kind of results did you get?

The boat had hook across most of the bottom from one side to the other. The boat is a single engine with a #6 and there were other setup issues as well. We made more than one change all of which resulted in more bow lift and more speed.

I have a 97 model 29 outlaw with 454mag mpi's in it, no hook like you talk about, has a slight porpose at cruise if you trim it up to much, a touch of tab are trim will take care of it, if the hook was the same on both side I would leave it along, they will have to cut into the hull past the gel to get it out then regel that area , might hurt resale, try some different props, maybe some hydomotives are lab your props, I would get the speed somewere else if it were me, and 10% is on the high side, i would think 5 are 6% to be about right, my boat will run 71 to 72 on gps with 25 mirage plus props

Outlaw, I've felt your pain. My 25' Martini had a substantial hook built into the hull. It always seemed to plow water and I could never get it to 'free up'. After filling/fairing that hook it was nothing but good things. PM or e-mail or call if you would like some more info on the procedure.

Sincerely,
Brian Kamrath 519-887-8282

My old boat had a significant hook (3/8") on the outside next to the chine. Removing it did nothing for the speed of the boat. I did find several mph by going to a 2" shortened lower unit. The boat did become a handful to drive though.

Is the power original ?
502 MPI's I assume ?

What are the gear ratio's
of the drives ?

jt

Many boats have been built over the years with a "factory hook" to provide what the builders felt would be the best overall performance/handling characteristics, but I've yet to see a competition V hull with one. By removing my hook (was quite severe) and raising my "X" dim. I picked up over 10 MPH. I had hit a wall before that and adding power did practically nothing. I would say that if you want to go faster, you'll have to X the hook and compensate for other factors with tab and drive trim. --- Jer

the power is original 502 mpi, drive ratio 1.5 and the speed just seems pathetic for the boat with that much power and as I said no rpm change between 26' labbed bravo and 15 mirage, both can only hit 4600 on a good day being overtrimmed. It's hard to tell from your avitar but it just seems as though the boat plows as well as having the front get a bit unstable as it approaches 70. That is deffinately attributed to the bow being too low at a high rate of speed.

Exactly my prior situation JP!
 

My hook measured approx. 9/16"(in the middle) when holding a 48" level against the hull extending forward from the transom. There was no way my additional power would overcome this until it was removed. I saw an easy 15mph gain but I also replaced the gelcoat which was extremely 'chipped'. All of this was done while the Martini was flipped upside down. I removed every last trace of the original gelcoat. After filling the hook and fairing the rest of the bottom it immediately became apparent that I would require a quicker, easier way to smooth the very large surface area I was staring at.

I took a generic Makita belt sander and modified/extended it to accept a 4"x 48" belt (actually an 8"x 48" belt that I tore in half) that really made short work of leveling that hull. When she 'hooked' up you better make sure you were hanging on! It never burnt out that motor either, kudos to Makita!

While undertaking a project that size it really made you become a thrift mizer with the fairing/ fiberglass application. Sloppy/ damn-the-torpedoes application=more work, Very little excess=less work. All in all I'm not sure I would peel a bottom again. It's a huge undertaking. (at least the way I did it) Here's a picture of the next project, my Corsa. I just pulled it inside for the winter. Something I'll work on inbetween tab/custom project building this winter.

P.S. Thankfully, the bottom of the Corsa is straight.


Brian Kamrath

JP,

Where was your hook. Was it intentionally built into the hull and you took it out or was it a manufacturing issue.
Mine is like a wedge that is right under each trim tab running about 10" in from the transom between the outer chine and the outer strake on both sides. Looks like it was put there intntionally but for the life of me i can't figure out why

This may sound kind of
"elementary", but have you
check to see if the throttle
plates are full open at wide open throttle ?

Do you store alot of junk (coolers, anchors
porta pottie, etc) up front ?

You can see in the larger picture,
the water is breaking in the front, just
after the inner strake ends, which is
at the rear third of the boat.
And the base of the K planes ( the area
of the wedge) is out of the water.

It gets kind of squirrely up on top,
but I attribute it to being that it's riding on
less of the hull surface.

Has fuel pressure and timing been checked ?


jt

JT,

The throttle plates are fully open, I do have an anchor and chain and have a small cooler. In all that may be adding 60 pounds, certainly not enough to affect the speed by that much. Fuel pressure, timing, new plugs, distibuto caps, allignment, everything has been checked and is perfect.

I can't get a clear look at the picture you have. Can you email it to me at [email protected].

Remember, you are also running quite a bit more horsepower than me with the 500's and that may attribute to you being higher out of the water as well, thereby not touching the wedge. Every picture i have of my boat has the wetted surface far ahead of the wedge and as i said the trim tabs have no affect unless i nail them more than half way, well past the affect of the "wedge"

I have a 1988 Baja Force235 that also has the hooks like you described. Another board member, BadDog, also has a Force235 with the same hooks, so it looks like Baja has been doing this for some time. It may have been done to help planing and prevent porpoising on boats that were equipped with lower HP. Mine came out with a 350 Mag originally. BadDog is considering the removal of his - I'm looking forward to seeing his results, as mine may be coming off as well.

My situation was with an old '77 Martini hull. The hook was probably 2/3 manufactured, 1/3 bad trailer support. It involved the last 3 to 3.5 ft. of the boat and was present to some degree from keel th chine. Went through all "MARTINIBOAT" did and more to fix. Baja probably did yours to help the average powerplant get on plane quicker and make it easier for the average guy to run without playing with drive and tab trim. Sounds like your little "wedge" will come off easy. I'd say "DO IT!" --- Jer

Budman,

I also have a 1988 Baja 235 Force, where are the hooks located? The hull looks straight to me.

Hooks or "wedges" are on the strakes right behind the trim tabs. Some have said that these are out of the water when the boat is on plane, but I think that they are at least seeing "soft water", i.e. heavy spray. BadDog says that they were actually added after the boat was popped from the mold, in which case they would probably be easy to take off.

I am having the "wedge" removed as we speak and will tell you guys what the result is in a few weeks. There were many email sent to me telling me that it was intentionally put there and not to do it. However, after consulting with a few experts, I had to conclude otherwise and give it a try. As I said having the hook there to give the average consumer th ability to have an overall good performing boat seems a bit contrary to me. Why add large horsepower to a boat only to contradict it by putting something in the hull to slow it dow. I can use trim and tabs on my own to compensate and intend on doing so. However, I want the hull to be perfectly straight to get the highest degree of efficiency and the least amount of drag

Keep us posted on the results.

What is the elevation that you
run the boat at ? ( sea level, etc)

jt

I run it in Southern California in the ocean and at Lake Havasu in AZ. So my elevation changes from 0 to 400 or so feet. One more thing, there is no rpm or speed change between ocean and fresh water or 70 degree and 105 degree heat. That's even more bizare and further proves to me that the engine is capable of making plenty of power, just can't get the hull to get passed it's ineficiency.

Well.......There goes that theory.

You probably thought I ran it at Altitude:) Any other suggestions?

I also have those on my hull right in front of the trim tabs. But, I can get my bow to "fly" so I am assuming that hook is not affecting me. What do you all think? If I can get my bow up, granted it takes lots of positive drive trim, should I also remove these or leave them alone? I now have 280 k-planes vrs, the original Bennetts

Hook
 

What kind of boat do you have, Formula?

Very strange cruiser /go fast hybrid. 1988 Cruisers Rogue 2800. Here a pic of the transom, the hook is just where the tabs are and helps get it on plane and keep the bow down at lower speeds. I think it must be out of the water at WOT but I dont know for sure.

Formula, that's an interesting looking transom. How much swim platform/deck is out 'beyond the transom?

Brian

Formula31,

I looked at buying a '88 Rogue 24' a few years ago. Interesting boat, lots of cockpit room, and good looking lines. It had some odd looking jump seats in the cuddy - they looked like the seats you would see on a jumbo jet. I had to pass on that particular boat because it had a ton of stress cracks and it was kept in the water - looked like it needed too much TLC. Yours looks much nicer.

From the fact that you are running twins and it is a big, heavy boat (I know that single-engine 24' I looked at weighed a TON), I would guess that your hooks are still seeing significant water at speed. I guess the only way to know for sure would be to get up close to the boat when at speed and observe. I know my Baja is dragging ass - that thing is a PIG!

Brian, theres about 38" out from the transom. heres a pic in the water

Budman, It weighs around 7500 which isnt too bad for a 34' LOA 10' beam boat. The nearly 900 hp scoots it along pretty good if I would only stop blowing engines. Just brought it home today for the winter

What are you running for power? What kind of top speed? Looks like a good compromise between cruiser and go-fast. I've often wondered about supercharging a cruiser, or dropping in a big-cube engine. Comfort and speed is a nice combination - if only I could afford the gas! :D

454's on steroids. The trick is keeping it all below the deck. Had to use torker 2 intakes to keep it low enough. Mid to upper 60's right now and 70 with the right water and air but I had an engine that just wasnt doing its thing and eventually blew up so one of them starts from scratch this year. I will be happy with a solid 70 for quite a while. I found this when I had to sell my Formula SR311 for money and livability reasons. These are the only older cruisers that had some speed capability. I love the new formula cruisers but wow, have to win the lottery. This is my second fast cruiser project.

Yeah I remember the last one Formula... it was the flying ambassador if I remember correctly. I thought the pic of that thing flying with only the drive in the water was pretty cool! :cool:

Dave

Formula- Thanks for sharing the pics. Looks like you have the best of both worlds.

Brian

Hmmn, 'Flying Ambassador' you say. I would love to see a picture of that! What are the chances? Any history on them?

Brian

It was a late 80s Regal 233 Ambassador Martini if I remember correctly which Formula souped up. He sent me a pic one time that I really liked, but now cannot find. Maybe he will share.

Dave