Whipplesuperchargers
 

What shops in the Midwest [north Indiana or south Michigan] has successfully done the new Whipple's on HP500EFI's. I plan on this installation on my 380 Powerquest before the spring boating season. Coments?

I haven't done the new 500 EFI kit but have installed Whipple Supercharger's and stock one kit. Feel free to email me directly or call 314-952-0861 with specific questions.

I'm happy you are going to join the Blown world fo boating. However, before you do the deed. I think you (unless you just like throwing money away) should make one post on OSO....
How many people have blown drives using Whipples vs how many people have blown them using ProChargers?
A friend at our lake with a 36-38 BAJA twin 502efi's has had nothing but trouble with his Whipples. Had to replace one engine twice. Whipples put sudden power off idle (where the greatest strain on the drive is- heavy boat + high torque=maximum load/stress), where Prochargers are "softer" off idle, but less strain. Total boost may or not be the same....the Procharger efficiency keeps improving as rpm increase, Whipples flatten out or lose efficiency at high rpm (a characteristic of positive displacement superchargers). It is a trade off. I have never had a drive or engine problem or failure (I use Procharger). Also, it is said the new Prochargers (self contained) are QUIETER than the Whipple's. :D (a sleeper?) I can only recommend you ask the manufacturer his recommendations for an installer. ;) Best of Luck!

I don’t' want to start some big pissin match, But I totally disagree with 93Formula, Sorry Man I just have my own opinion and my own experiences.
You can blow a drive with a stock 502 if you hammer it all of the time. I have had only Whipples so I can’t comment on the Prochargers but I have not ever blown a drive or had any engine troubles (I have had many different boats w/Whipples).
I have owned and installed a lot of Whipples and have only had a good experience. You are right about the Whipples making more power at low RPM’s but I believe you are wrong about them losing efficiency. Since most boating is done in the lower to mid RPM range I would personally prefer to have the power there. And I know for a fact that Whipples make a lot of power at the top end as well (see Feb Hot Boat and look at the article Sizzlin Small Blocks) My boat does very well on the top end.
I could go into technical reasons all day long but all I have to say is that I have only had great experience with Whipples products and there support. I have on the other hand heard a lot of problems with Procharger but I do not have any first hand experience.

Don’t take this personally, It is OK for people to disagree.

Pyle :) :D

I would agree from what I have read over the years the procharger is more of a soft start than the whipple. I sure you can blow drive with both. In my opinion it is the drives that are the problem, they simply cant handle the extra power. Count on upgrading the drives with either option. Or take your chances and try and take it easy on them and hope for the best. I personally know of two well known engine builders have had tuning problems the the procharger systems. Both perfered the Whipple because of that.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Raypanic ]

I just had whipples on my PQ (502Mags) Last fall. It is a different setup but with the same type of blower unit. So far I am very impressed with the power produced. See my Dyno sheets :http://www.jlmwholesale.com/ray/WhippleInstall/whipple.html.

This spring I will have more experience though.

Pyle, that's what makes the world go round ...different insights. That's cool. Most user problems with Prochargers have been a result of not getting the fuel management correct, especially on carb'd versions. A competent professional such as Dean Nickerson works wonders with fuel system reworks. Amazing. There are also specialist for the EFI world. Please don't misunderstand me here, I am not "knocking" Whipples, it's simply that there are major differences in how the different chargers work. The efficiencies I spoke of were quated from a comparison article of positive displacement & centrifical superchargers & published by POKER RUN MAGAZINE last year. I provided about 75 copies to OSO members (via fax only). I certainly agree everyone has a right to their .02. OSO members do truly seem to lean toward the positive displacement types (BDS, Whipple, B&M, etc. but there are also die hard Procharger guys that like the smoothness & resulting durability we enjoy as a "benefit of Procharging". Yes, you can tear up a drive or engine even naturally aspirated. There is also preventative things such as drive showers to help drives live. I am a true believer in Simrek drive showers also, but there are probably 48 other makes that some people swear by.
Bottom line is ...we each pay the price of our decisions/choices we make when modifying a "Marine Appliance!" That price is usually 2-3 times the same mistake in a car, so I want DIFFERING OPINIONS to consider before making a choice. That's what OSO is good for!
YEH TEAM OSO !! :D :D

93 Formula, Very well said!!

It has always amazed me to see how two simular products can have groups of people that love one and Hate the other. It is like Coke & Pepsi, both are very good and well liked but if you ask some people will say one is great and the other sucks. When in fact they are very simular. People just really like to have thier favorite.

Pyle

This thread brings up a test I would love to see someone perform...That is run a dyno test comparing the 2 supercharger type on the same engine, same dyno. Maybe a turbo setup also. Maybe even the same comparison on an actual boat install. Sounds like a good magazine test.

Aside from power range there a 2 important variables that effect blower motors. Initial set up and driver. If you are hard on your motor your motor will be hard on you. Same goes for your drives.

Hey Bob, What are you doing over here in the supercharger section? Clay trying to convince you to buy a Whipple :D LOL

Any blower that puts a smile on your face and runs reliably is a good blower.

With that said... The Whipple system has a lot more paramaters controlled and monitored by computer where the others rely on the installer to tweak it in manually. The Whipple also has more computer controlled safegards built in to save the engine or warn the driver if something in the basic engine systems (Like Fuel pressure, water pressure, bad impeller etc) goes south. That my friends is a lot of "Piece of mind", my .02, happy boating everyone! :eek:

Coke is better with JB and Pepsi is OK with RUM. There, that settles it! Drive reliabilty starts at the helm.
Tim T.

93formula, we've been over this a million times, I'm just not sure how to make it clear to you, airflow does not equal AE, there are other parameters. A screw compressor does not fall off, they have a very flat curve that typically varies approx. 10% through the rpm range. A centrifugal ranges much more but is not more efficient. Also, if you use a centrifugal that made peak efficiency on peak rpm, you would have very low, low boost levels at low rpms. The graph you always refer to is air flow, not efficiency. So your statement that they are more efficient is very inaccurate. In fact, if you measure efficiency at every rpm level, then the screw compressor will almost always be far superior to a screw compressor, just like overall horsepower and torque increases. They make more power from 1000rpm on up. As for drives, it's a product of power, vs. weight vs. driving style, vs. prop design, vs. envoirnment, etc. Not only that, power is a function of throttle position, if you don't open the throttle, you don't make any power meaning that everybody is in control of their power.

Centrifugals do "spool up" like turbos to some degree and pump out a lot of air at higher rpms, that doesn't mean more power, you have to understand that. You always state the graph, but that shows airflow, NOT blower efficiency. Do you think the centrifugal co. sale a supercharger that is the highest efficiency point on each motor? I don't think so, that would mean each kit, everytime you change pulley, raise rev limit, etc. then you would have to change blowers to maximize efficiency. Instead, their constantly working on making a broader efficiency curve and flow pattern to create more power at low speeds.

What's even funnier is that you state procharger customers have had some problems, but typically with fuel management, well who's selling what? What is bolt-on? Have we missed the boat by having superior testing procedures, sophistacted equipment, strong racing contacts, OEM contacts, etc? Because I thought the fuel management was always part of the kit. If a company can say, hey this is the best, most reliable, no problems product, yet you have to always rely on somebody else to get it to work properly, how credible is the mfg? I understand their are custom applications, but kits for 500 HP EFI's, 502 Magnums, etc. are OEM production motors with very little variance.

I love everybodies opionion, but you always state inaccurate information. It's so much more complicated than you seem to realize, theirs compressor size, boost level, rpm range, inlet and discharge size, etc. But I'm telling you, centrifugals are not more efficient than screw compressors, especially throughout the rpm range. We can make the same peak horsepower as any centrifugal at any rpm when sized correctly.

Umm, Prochargers are not quieter than a screw compressor at idle.

I don't think a magazine will ever do that test, a lot of politics, everybody advertises so nobody wants anything said about them, I tried getting this going many times, intercoolers, blowers, EFI setup, etc. so you have to go off what guys tell you such as Phaff, GT, Teague, Wilkes, Perf. Marine, etc. or the info provided. Look whats real and whats not, and does looks mean anything anymore :D? Look at what Mercedes has switched too, look familar?

Thanks,
Dustin

PS Sejman, isn't PRI Marine right near you?

Did I miss something?

Dustin,

I have always respected you on this board. I run prochargers but have never made a negative comparison or post about your product. In your post you are bashing procharger, implying that they sell an incomplete system, and they "have to rely on somebody else to get it to work properly". You sell a complete system for diff. engines right? 502 carb, 502 efi, 502HP, 454 carb, 454 efi etc. Thats great. Procharger sells superchargers, not complete kits. You buy their charger, your fuel pump, your fuel lines, you change the ecu, your guages, etc. I am sure if they did sell a complete kit that their price would be closer to yours. They also have decent tech. support, as do you. If you want to promote your product, great. If you want to sell "the better product" great, but do not be-little yourself by putting down your competition. I have their product and it is a good one. I have never experienced any problems. I am sure your supercharger has been installed improperly, right? I do not feel your post lives up to your rep. Misinformation will always be past around. How you deal with it is what can set you apart.

Friends,

As I read this thread I once again realize how fortunate all of us are to be in the position to own the boats we do. There is a passion that comes with performance boating, and this thread displays that via loyalty to one product or another, be we consumer or manufacturer. I don't think anyone is wrong here, I do think we all have our own bias and tend to justify what we've spent our money on. Whether it's B&M, ProCharger, Whipple etc. they all are fine products that deliver more HP and add to our boating pleasure.

I happen to have Whipples, and I'm pleased with their performance and Dustin's service. We completed our installation last August/Sept. Mine is triple installation in an app. 13,500 pound boat. No drive failures (XRs) (Yet) after about 100 hours with the Whipples.

Getting on plane, I throttle up to about 3,000 RPM very gently, boost will go to about 3 lbs. for 4 to 7 seconds until it planes off, then drop to -0-. There is no noticeable boost until about 4500 RPM and then runs about 6.5 lbs. at WOT.

I don't really "hear" the blowers until you get into boost, and frankly I really enjoy that sound :) The joy is somewhat muffled by the rapid movement on the fuel guages :(

Whatever Blower you're running, I hope you're having fun, and that someday we'll meet. If you're ever in the Fort Lauderdale area, we live in Lighthouse Point and I'd be happy to show you the boat. Time allowing, we'll take her for a spin and you can be the judge of performance, sound levels etc.

Take care,
Steve

Steve, what speed were you getting before you installed the Whipples and what are you getting now?

First of all, I don't have a whipple or procharger so I believe I can be unbiased. I think Dustin was just trying to clarify some facts that were unclear or incorrectly stated about both systems and don't believe he was bashing on procharger. Dustin is always here to help and answer questions from OSO members. I have never seen anyone from procharger here. I have also seen Dustin offer tech advice numerous times to people with prochargers. I also have heard numerous complaints about about poor tech support from procharger.
As far as blowing drives, that is a product of the torque created by the whipples. The amount of torque is strictly controlled by the amount of throttle applied by the driver.

Getting back to the original question, "Who has done these?" If nobody responds specifically that they have done this new package I would reccomend Tyler Crockett. ( http://www.crockettmarineengines.com/) He is near Port Huron MI. He did my whipples and many others he also does a lot of work on the HP500EFI's for the racing circuit. I know he knows his stuff about both. Also PRI in columbus Oh is pretty good too. I have had no engine work done there but I did buy Eliminator there and they are mostly a engine shop Talk to Rob. (http://www.primarine.com/)

Whippled Charged, You are so Cute when you get all excited :D .

Pyle

Ken,

I'm not bashing anyone, I'm taking the information given and looking at it in a different viewpoint. as 93formula said "Most user problems with Prochargers have been a result of not getting the fuel management correct" I really disagree that Procharger doesn't sale complete kits, check out their web page or call and talk with them, 500 HP EFI's, 502 Magnums, even carb kits are packaged as "complete bolt-on packages." Heres a quote from Prochargers marine website regarding the 350 Mag MPI: "100% Complete; Installs in 3-4 Hours, with no Internal Engine Modifications."

I'm amazed that someone can say, hey I bought this complete kit, but had to then spend $$ and time fixing the fuel system and brackets or whatever and it's cool. That's like buying a new car and having to order the seat belts from another company later on. I never once said that a company does not give you complete kits, I'm going off the info 93formula provided. If their not complete, then hey, fuel systems, hardward, water system, etc. all need to be modified, but I was refering to complete kits.

I"ve never once said we don't have problems, were all human, it's typically how their handled which makes the big difference. I don't knock Procharger, I've always said they make great horsepower and they have massive intercoolers which do a lot of cooling, but when people keep giving false information, I would like to help set the record straghit. I've personally had many emails, calls, etc. about other co. problems and if I could help, which I have without making a dime because I love to help. I agree there is a lot of misinformation out there, no doubt about it.

I'm very proud of our testing standards, our taste, our quality, our product. I will tell you that we have quality that is second to none, ask our customers, how did it look, how about fitting, what about finish? I state the truth, and take info that is either supplied to me or what I have learned and share that with everybody. Hope this clears any misunderstanding up.

Thanks,
Dustin

Pyle, you wittle rascal you!! :D I'm telling Stacey! :D

Dustin, You're top notch. You are one of the 'gurus'. You bring to this board a tremendous amount of information, knowledge and helpfulness. Those that don't know will never know. Do you have any dyno curves for your systems? I am complying a library of engines, stock and modified, with their hp and rpm. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Winter is tough back east, bench racing sucks. Marty.

I have a proCharger on my boat, And when I blew a head gasket after 78 hrs. Dustin helped me out on finding the reason. I thought that was very profesional of him. He didn't have to do that, but he did it because he likes helping us out. It's a nice change, now adays it's hard enough to get customer sevice , let alone from someone that doesn't even carry the products. :)
Dustin Your the Man :D And thanks for all the help....

cobra marty,

Thanks a bunch, I have some awesome dyno sheets, just got one from somebody that made 1493hp with our quad rotor setup, email me at work and I'll scan it in or fax it, my work email is [email protected].

Kanookstr, just doing my part, hope the same is done for me next time I need it, lord knows I need it sometimes. Maybe when somebody has women figured out, that would be nice, maybe somebody can shed some light on that? Pyle, that's you, you look so sweet in that pink pok-a-dot dress!! :D

Dustin :D

Hey guy's, As you know I know Dustin Pretty well ;) . :D
Really Dustin has been a great Guy to work with on all of my projects even when things did not go right he was always there to help, He is a first class guy. I first called Whipple and wanted to talk to someone that could tell me the diff. between Whipples and Procharger, Dustin was put on the phone, I was shocked at how Honest he was and I could tell right away that he was very well informed. I ordered a Whipple and have bought many more since then. Since that first call I have became good friends with Dustin and I have only been more impressed the more I get to know him. I know this sounds like another (Hey Dustin's the Man thing) but I have not ever taken the time to mention how much he has helped me out on Boat and Truck projects.

Thanks Dustin

And by the way I think we should lay off the Homo thing, since your last email my wife is really starting to wonder :D Just messing around :eek:

I don't have a Whipple, or Pro-Charger system, but after working with both companies here is my opinion. Whipple's seem to be a simpler, more complete installation, where as the Pro-Chargers need to be installed by someone who is knowledgable in making (tuning) there system work.
As far as the numbers I've seen the Whipples do produce more torque quicker, and have a very flat curve. This can be a great thing if you have the proper equipment hanging off the back of your boat, and the loose nut holding onto the wheel, and sticks doesn't get out of control. As stated earlier in this thread you can (and some of us have) break drives naturally aspirated it's all up to you. :)

Dustin,

Your contibutions and dedication to the industry and the members of this board goes above and beyond any expectation, there is no question about this. I just felt your response to 93formula was a little heated toward procharger, thats all. Maybe I should not have used the term "bash" in my last post but that was the 1st word that came to mind. I don't think anyone has all the facts when it comes to analyzing both products, myself included. I hope you understand. ;)

I wish last year when I researched blower systems I would have taked to Dustin. I was interested in the quad rotor system & figured I was going to have to go EFI to get the clearance under my cover. The person I talked to told me the price was about $15K, plus what ever I needed to EFI. I was told I would have to go to another source for help on EFI since whipple did not supply . After some searching I did not find anyone in Houston area that was up on EFI & whipples only people that wanted me to take boat to them so they could set up. I check with procharger & after talking to some members on this board I decided that was the way to go. I have called procharger tech & got all the answers I needed. So far only have about $6k invested. Motor not together yet, hopefully I will have together & in water in next 3 weeks & then we will see what she will do

:) TO DUSTIN & everbody else !!
Ok, here we go. I started out only discussing CHARACTERISTICS as factors to consider and now this.... I just gotta answer it!

Dustin, I appreciate your response BUT:
1.I never said Procharger was more efficient than Whipple !
2.If airflow is not a measure of efficiency then why does everyone worry about restrictive airfilters & flame arresters reducing airflow ?? not to mention exhaust systems?
3. I did say-Whipples create boost immediately off idle & Prochargers build boost gradually (softer boost off idle), therefore (drawing a reasonable conclusion) the more torque (throttle)applied coming on plane puts more stress on the drive. I am talking about ALL drives but mostly unmodified Bravo's, not XR's or other exotics most of us don't have. You agreed with me & my formula ( funny I should say that !)
weight+ torque=maximum load + stress (throttle)....or "the 'charger (whatever kind), the boat & the nut behind the wheel"
I'm glad we agreed here!
4. I did say- Prochargers become more efficient as rpm increase (airflow again?) & Whipples flatten out or lose effiency (you agreed with this in your post- you said "flat line or 10% variation"). Yes there are other factors involved, I agree. I also said- boost may or not be the same, there is a trade off"- from your post, you must also agree.
5. I never said "Prochargers are quieter at idle". I did say "the NEW Prochargers (self-contained) are quieter than the Whipples". You made no response to that.?.
6. I never said superchargers of any kind blow drives. Please re-read both of my posts. They eqate boost & where it occurrs, with weight (boat & load) as being a major cause of stress LEADING to drive failure. Not everyone can restrain themselves from sometimes "Hammering Down" off idle or maybe they are just pulling up skiers? Remember please, we are all not full time racers, we use these boats for ALL activities. Many if not most of us have wives, kids, houses, cars, trucks, atv's, snowmobiles, schools/colleges, ex-wives,etc. that we must also support. Not just our local outdrive dealer!
7. PLEASE ! I do not wish to get into an argument about "manufacturers Packages". I never went there. I, speak only from what I see here on OSO & with talking to others. Most problems with ANY SUPERCHARGER IS FUEL RELATED !! Please do a search on that & even Whipple is not excluded. This is the issue of primary importance to each of us. If someone can make fuel delivery better, more accurate &/or more efficient across the RPM/BOOST range, then I will try it. I like my engines to live a long time. Your reply was directed toward EFI & I never mentioned EFI fuel delivery or problems with Procharger & EFI. I spoke only of carb'd versions & their inherent "in-correctness" as manufactured (as a "suck thru vs. blow thru/pressurized application- but not in this post, see others). I recommended Nickerson's Performance sometimes because he was in on the developement process with Procharger & his work is outstanding.
8. I never said any manufacturer was best, most efficient, etc. I only offer information & my personal experiences. People (boaters) need to make informed decisions & ALL information is critical to that process. I understand AZ Speed does quite a business in ECM work for/on WHIPPLES, so I guess that puts that issue to bed about "other vendors fixing problems".
9. I recommended that "sejman" contact the manufacturer for their recommended installer.
Maybe my friend has so much trouble with his Whipple-charged engines (bought new in a new BAJA as previously mentioned) is because their is no shop support in this region. Hence "sejman's" question? Yes, it my be supported in Ca., Az, Fl., but where else??? Procharger is manufactured in the Midwest & supported there. I know not, the east or west coat situations & never implied I did.
10. If there are inaccuracies with the article in "POKER RUNS AMERICA", then you & Whipple should address those with the magazine. Maybe the will re-print & correct their article to your liking.
11. I think Dustin can be complimented for assisting others on this board as he has been many, many times. But please be ACCURATE, when critisizing (sp?) a post response.

Overall, I cannot say you disagreed with much I did SAY. Only in how you percieved it from your Whipplecharged position, as an attack. Which it was not. This is a discussion forum, not a manufacturers forum. All are allowed even if they have differing opinion & "favorites".
I hope I offended no one here, but when accused, one must answer when mis-quoted even in the same post. :D ;)

93formula,

First off, I can go on for days regarding blower efficiency, but I don't have the time nor energy. The fact is that you always refer to the article in Poker Runs America where they showed an airflow graph. You always refer to this as an efficiency graph. Sorry for jumping the gun, just loved the line "unless you just like throwing away money" as you refered to Whipple causing more drive failures. I would usually say nothing, allowing others to discuss the topic, but with quotes like yours, I have to stand behind what I've learned and know. I know your only stating your opinion, but I have my own, as well as facts to show another view point.

The reason air filters, exhaust, etc. work on naturally aspirated engines is that the motor is creating a vacuum, exhaust helps scavenge the cylinders to create a larger suction, air filter/throttle bodies make the restriction (if there is any) less so the motor will have less vacuum and in turn have more air in the cylinder to create more energy per power stroke.

Airflow does matter, but is by no means an accurate way of measuring efficiency. Obviously, if you had a supercharger that pumped no air, it would be very inefficient. But what your not looking at is the power to produce that airflow, the temp in which it creates as it compress's or moves air, or the leakage of air that does not get compressed into the cylinder. A screw compressor has one of the highest, if not the highest volumetric efficiency as it turns higher in rpm, it gets near 99% VE at the top rpms. Very different than a roots, similar to a centrifugal. Centrifugal companies do not size superchargers per kit just to get peak efficiency on the top end, but the same as us, trying to get the largest HP/TRQ increase throughout the entire rpm range. After all, as we so wonderfully agreed, power is controlled by the operator, how much the throttle is opened, but I sure as hell would rather have that power in reserve for when I really need it :D

If I worried about all the misprints in every magazine, I would never get anything done, every month there's some "expert" that gets things wrong on blowers, fuel systems, exhaust systems, etc.

Maybe it's possible, although very far fetched, the SC's weren't installed properly or something wasn't maintaining in your friends Baja. I know it's a stretch, but possible. As I said before, everybody has problems. I don't think the midwest or southeast, or whatever should matter, sejmen should be able to get great service from us or one of our installing dealers such as PRI Marine or fellow OSO member Bruce.

Az. Speed and Marine are wonderful, we do a lot with them, but they don't make a business fixing our problems, they buy our systems minus fuel systems and attack them in different ways for the most part. This is not because we have problems, but because there the Delco/Delphi Marine distributor, have the Delco software that only a select few have and can buy parts sometimes cheaper than us. As I said, I work very closely with those guys and have many future projects in store. They do not supply us with calibrations or fixes, we get sensors, connectors, injectors and many other things from them as well as sharing info when possible.

There is no "blower war" regarding who's kit does what, thats for the public too decide. I'm here to help, as I've said many times, whatever your problem may be, if I can help from something that I've been through or ran across, then I'll offer my .02. So, if it's inaccurate info, then of course I'm going to offer some accurate info, especially if it's in my field of expertise.

I'm not sure why I'm having to explain myself, I'm offering accurate information, I might not be putting it in the correct form or context, but it's accurate.

Thanks for your time,
Dustin :D

Proof is in the product. Single engine cat. Before 84mph after with Whipple 106mph. The only problem is that I need another prop becuase I still hit the rev limiter, expect another 8-10mph by the time the dust settles.

As far as efficiency, any engine that makes more torque than horsepower is effiecient. Mine makes 792.2lb-ft at 3200 and 748.6hp at 5750. It makes over 700lb-ft all the way to 5250. That is serious bolt on performance for a turn key bolt on. Marine engines are supposed to have a flatter torque curve, that is the difference between marine and street. Just take a look at any of the Merc Racing dyno sheets.

Could not say enough about the customer service. Dustin responded after hours by e-mail and cell phone while I was going though the installation. BTW, I installed the system myself and I had never worked on a pushrod engine before in my life.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: BadCat ]

Well, I now know I wish I knew about Dustin and all his support 2 years ago when I started my "Blown Small Block" project. I did get a part from him but it was long after I had already purchased my 6-71 and was just getting the final plumbing worked out. Two summers gone and I still don't think it is performing like it should.
I have read several of Dustins posts on this board and others. Doesn't matter the type of blower or application. He is ALWAYS helping out. Good Job Dustin!! :D I may be getting ahold of you when the ice comes off the lake. ---------- T