Arneson Drives Pros & Cons
 

We are woking on a 312 Formlua with twin 454's. Since we are adding Whipples and new Heads, We need to upgrade the drives. The customer was considering Arneson drives and since I have no experiance with them I just wanted to get the real deal. I was suggesting the New Imco SC with 1or2 inch shorter Lower's. I know all about the Bravo and how it works and handles but I have never been in a boat with the Arnesons. I know that both will handle the Power that we are making but I don't know how they handle and perform.

Any Info would be great.

Pyle

Why don't you ask Arneson?

[email protected]

C&M. Did you know that you will then need to go with a transmission if your are converting from a Bravo drive. As for the surface drives. Formula did have them on their boats in the 80's (KAAMAs), but its really the same thing. There are (2) members on OSO with 1986 formulas and surface drives that could give you some great input on that size boat. (go back to the members boat listings section). My own thought is that once you go with the surface drive, you kinda rule out any water sports. The drives sit high, so they would probably get a better chance to eat the tow line. You wont be able to see whats behind you. But on the up-side.........you have far less drag than the bravo, less HP loss because the Arneson does not have the bevel gears and angles. The Arneson is also much more reliable with larger boats and hp. (just look at the board entries with the heavier boats and hp, and how many have blown the bravos).

Bob

KaamaCat, What about maneuvering?? I would think that the Arneson would make a larger radius turn??

Pyle

True....They do. Very wide arc, and not good at slow speed. Although, when I'm docking just having twins makes it ok. Its not th thing to have if you wanted to (at slow speed) manuver around a bunch of boats in a cove or something like that. But then again, I just use one side or the other to steer slow versus even turning the wheel. Now. You also have to consider the shallow water capability is excellent. I really think these drive types are more for the person that has a larger open area to cruise in. It does have the "cool factor". No doubt that someone will see you comming before they hear you.

Bob

Mr. C&M, email mail me and I will explain the cost of the Arneson’s. More expensive than IMCO might not be correct, especially when everything is taken into consideration. Our Bravo to Arneson Conversion is very competitively priced.

As for skiing, we have customers that ski with Arneson’s. At 25 mph there is no rooster tail to contend with, and all one has to do is trim the drive lower to eliminate it at most speeds. If he is speed skiing, get a longer rope….

We are doing a project with a few ski boat manufacturers to test an Arneson Surface Drive on an actual ski boat. Some people must think it will work.

With regards to maneuverability, last week there was a comparison test done of two 42’ Fountain Lighting’s, one with 500 EFI/Bravo’s and one with Yanmar 440/Arneson’s, everything else was identical. The Arneson boat not only went faster (83 vs. 77), it stayed on plane at slower speeds, handled better at slower speeds, docked better and was able to make tighter and faster turns than the Bravo boat.

We just finished making an adapter to allow a Mercury Outboard Propeller (Over the Hub Exhaust) to fit the ASD6 Drive, eliminating the higher cost speedmaster propellers.

Your customer sounds like a smart man!

My husband had Kamma drives on his 30' Scarab in 1984 and Arnesons on his 1987 34' Sutphen and his current 1995 39'Sutphen. We actually are still using the same drives from 1987, he thinks they have been great.
Minimal upkeep. Yes, it takes a little while to get used to them, but he can manuver his boat anywhere and our friends see us coming before they hear us.

Rik
Sounds like you know what you are talking about. I have a ?. on a 47 fountain trip. with arneson type drives I have heard they will list or lean to one side real bad and not ride on plane well. I looked at a 51 and was told this by some that worked at the dealer, of coarse not by the owner. I have heard this later also. Maybe you can tell us what the diff. would be in the speed, handleing and weight to bravo drives.
Thanks for any info :)

With Arnesons on that hull there will be no appendage below the keel at most trim angles so that shallow water or a stray log will probably not ruin your day.

Blueman, sounds like someone had a boat that did not have counter rotating propellers. Two or more propellers spinning the same direction will cause a boat to list to one side, regardless of outdrive.

Depending upon the engine power, the rotation change (RH and LH) is handled by the Arneson outdrive. Larger diesel engines rely upon the Marine Gear for the change of rotation as well as the reduction.

We have Arneson’s on some big boats, and they plane very well, as well as stay on plane. This is another area that was tested recently with the 42’ Fountain. The Arneson’s could maintain a lower plaining speed than the Bravos.

Depending upon your engines power, (to use the appropriate Arneson Surface Drive) the ASD6 drive weighs 157 lbs, including the steering and trim cylinders, trim pump and bolts. I do not know what a complete Bravo assembly weighs.

Speed gains are different boat to boat, naturally a boat that runs a very deep X dimension will gain far more than a boat with an extremely high X dimension. With less drag and more power going to the water, the boat will run faster with the Arneson Surface Drives.

Rik: What is the conversion costs from TRS to your set up?

Jon

jon i woudl assume just the drives. you woudl already have the trannies. Patchup the tansom and mount the arneson to the back. YOu woudl also have to upgrad to full hydraulic steering.

RIK
It was a triple with two right and one left rotation with 600 hp. Sharp boat fabao drives. I was looking for something to replace bravos. Triple 47 572 CI 725 HP. I have been watching the Bmax not to much out there. It does not look like the xr upper case & top gear hold up very well. Thanks for all your info. :)

You will not need to patch the transom, as the standoff box covers the holes from the out drive, Bravo, Alfa, TRS, etc.

Full hydraulic steering is included in the kit as is with all Arneson Surface Drives. Every new Arneson Surface Drive comes complete with External Hydraulic Steering and Trim Cylinders. Been that way since the beginning.

As for the boat with Buzzi’s? Maybe they should have tried the propellers turning the other way, one right two left. I don’t want to speculate much on their applications.

We have had triples even four engines in a boat and never had this problem, the old Harley boats were equipped with three sometimes four Caterpillar engines and four out drives. The New 48’ Fountain wide body cruisers are being equipped with three Yanmar Diesels and Arneson’s from the factory. I believe they will have one in the Miami boat show.

The Bravo to Arneson kit will hold up with the power you have, so it is an alternative.

Rik I would also like to know what the cost is for everthing to install in place of a bravo. 725 H.P. Hp500 Whippled. Also where do you pick up sea water and what would you have to replace so that you would have a low waret pick up?

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Garry ]

Two questions for RIK
1) What type of linkage is used between the tranny (B/W Velvet Drive) and drive (either dropbox or strait)? Plugin (like TRS, SSM), Flange/short driveline (staggered applications), or other?
2) Any problems using a B/W transmission tailshaft mounted reduction gear/reverse gear connected to a strait drive (no dropbox)?
Gary

You will need an external water pickup for your engine and coolers, as the Arneson Surface Drives do not have a water pickup incorporated in them. You merely plumb that into the engines water supply.

We use a driveline; a double cardon short coupled 1380 series to connect between the Velvet Drive Transmission and the drive unit. (This is what is supplied in the kit)

The style of transmission that we use is the flange mount style; Marc Berman from BAM would know if one could be converted to another? I use his transmissions in the kit; they have only a 12 hp loss after he works his magic. The drive uses very little hp as well, so I feel comfortable saying that the Arneson drive with the transmission will have less hp loss than a Bravo.

The gear reduction/drop B/W Velvet drive transmission has a rating that is lower than the non-gear reduction/drop. Huber states that the transmission cannot be upgraded to the same levels, so there is a limit on the amount of power you can use with this style of transmission. I do not know what the hp loss of this style of transmission is either, but it has to be more than the standard 72C due to the fact that there is more stuff in it. More weight also.

BAM has a dyno that can tell the answer, maybe Marc knows?

This is why I use the components that I use in the kit, stronger and simpler.

Garry
You might want to look at some external water pickups should be easy. Mine allready have external water pickups. Rik you might be correct try two counter clockwise maybe counter motor torque. I think trips are prone to that lean thing,two turning one direction. Thanks for all the info. :)

Blueman,
sounds like you have experienced this type of drive situation :p :p :p
Mobile Scott

Rik,
I'm not looking for a Bravo conversion. I was considering rerigging from scratch and simplifying it.
What are your thoughts on this? Staggered engines. Counter rotate using the tailstock reduction gear off an upgraded B/W velvet drive. Similar gear ratios are available for normal and counter rotation outputs.
Use an inline ASD6 or 8 without a drop box.
No need to counter rotate the engine since the tailstocks provide that (especially usefull with the ASD8). Reduction is accomplished in the tailstocks too.
Staggered engines should provide a low enough mounting of the drives, with respect to the center of gravity.
A fairly simple, efficient, cost effective setup, especially if converting a staggered engine, trs setup (already got the trannys) on a good rocker hull.
Your thoughts?
Gary

If the transmission is strong enough, then it will work. The new ASD8 has counter rotation built into it now, unlike the past, but the in-line drives will work fine also.

For a project that you are speaking of, this is the lowest cost means of doing the job. The in-line drives are less expensive than the drop box units, and the transmissions you speak of are not that expensive either.

I just do not know how strong they are.

I know that Express is using a ZF gear to do the same thing that you are thinking of, but the transmission has a Max RPM rating, (3,800 rpm) and a max HP rating. I believe they are over on both issues.

We need to contact Marc Berman/BAM to find out what the real story is on the planetary reduction/drop BW 5000 or 72C. Strong or weak…..

Hey Rik, did you guys get that Carrera together that you were putting the drive in? So, the counter-rotating props would cancel out any associate side torque if you used it in a single engine cat?

Craig

The Carrera was finished late last season, around Labor Day Weekend I believe. It ran 105 right off the bat. It's too cold to run now, but this summer with some different propellers it will hit the target 108. (1.56:1, 32” Pitch, 6,000)

I believe that the counter-rotating topic has to do with a triple engine installation.

The boat will definitely run more even with a counter-rotating engine, as the three engines, with serious torque, can influence the handling of a boat.

Has anyone else seen these photo's of this ASD6 Kit? http://www.arneson-industries.com/

The drive is on some kind of boat, don't know what, but it looks really cool!

Been running Arneson drives on my boats since 1983, 1721 up to asd-8 wouldnt have any other drive, buy far the fastest and strongest hands down but thats my point of veiw.

Rik,
I am one of the lucky performance boaters living close to San Rafael CA which is home town to Arneson-Industries. My boat is kept at the same marina where Howard launches his 46' Skater for testing. Quite often this allows me a chance to watch, listen and drool as the 4500hp Skater turbine runs 160mph + across San Pablo Bay. I use to think my 28' Scarab was cool but nothing is more humbling than to see Howards tow rig pull up and proceed to launch what looks like the F-15 fighter of boats. It is so cool to hear the turbine spooling up, I just stand there watching like a little kid and wishing for a ride.
OK back to reality... I have a tiny little malnurished 28' Scarab (4600lbs) and was wondering if an ASD-6 is enough for a 572" with 725 hp / 700 lbs? What are the upper limits of a beefed up ASD-6?
Thanks
[email protected]

Check your email..

Thanks

Rik...

Re: Arneson Drives Pros & Cons
 

Dear All

I Have Ads8 Arneson Drive With Crash Box
What Solution For Use This Drive With A Counter Rotation ?
Best Regards
Bernard