454 Engine rebuild
 

Hello fellow power boaters!!!! Many of you have heard this story before. I am on the quest for horsepower. I am rebuilding stock 330 HP this winter. Bored out .030 over , forged pistons, 10.5 to 1 comp.ratio, edelbrock performer rpm intake and matching cam (why have I not heard of anyone usin this cam for marine applications?), switched out peanut heads for set of large oval port, new valve springs and 4 angle valve job, roller rockers, carb?, and many other little goddies. Unfortunatley, at the moment, I am stuck with stock exhaust manifolds and risers. It is 4 inch through hull exhaust. Does anyone think I will have a problem with reversion? Cam specs are .570 lift at valve, 240 duration at .050. Any guesses on horse power? Anyone ever modified stock risers to avoid reversion? It is a 20 foot celebrity bowrider weight unknown. Deep V and brovo 1 outdrive. Any advice?? Or opionions? It is also used for ski's and tubes. Thanks for your input.

Talk to Crazyhorse and Dyno, they have a combo that makes great power from the 330 base and it is dependable.....Fred

Do a search here in the tech section on cams. There has been a lot of good info. Or search on reversion. Maybe you can compare recomended cam profiles with yours.

We've used cams similar to the one you picked without any problems, even with stock center-rise exhaust. Can you offer more detailed information on the pistons, such as part number, as well as the casting number of the head you will be using? Here's an example; a SpeedPro L2465F is 10.44:1 c/r with a 109cc cylinder head chamber volume, but with a 119cc chamber volume it's a more reasonable 9.6:1 compression ratio.

460 hp at the crank @ 5500 rpm would be my guess but,,,

with the performer rpm cam 240/246 on 112 .56/.573 you will have reversion with the stock exhaust and make peak power at like 5500 rpm which is to fast to spin the cast crank. The cast cranks will survive but you have to keep em under 5000 rpm

at 10.5:1 CR you will need to run 93 octane at least and may still have problems with detonation unless as crazy said they are 10.5:1 on 109 cc heads, if you have 119cc heads and they are more like 9.6:1 then you will probably be able to run 93 octane without problems. If you want to use regular then CR needs to be under 9:1

4 angle valve job? heard of 3 and 5 , not 4 in any case make sure they leave a nice wide exhaust seat or you won't get enuff heat transfer and burn an exhaust valve this is why typically marine heads do not use 5 angle valve jobs

For skiing you are probably going to have less torque than you had with the stock 330 with that cam under 3200 rpms

We've had really good luck with the cast cranks. Dyno regularly spins his to 5200 and SuperV has been spinning his to 5600 since he's had the boat, and that's 8 years. But neither of these guys runs for hours with the loud levers jammed all the way forward.
If you've got the money for forged cranks that's great, but it's not a necessity for the average weekend warrior. Put a good fluid damper in place of the stock balancer. And try to get the compression to around 9.5 unless you like running 110LL avgas (hey, it really smells cool).

Thank you for the responses, CrazyHorse, the pistons I first were going to use are SPEED PRO L2465F with pressed pin. I have decided to go with L2399F with floating pin. My heads are 109cc open chamber 1974 truck style, and Ibelieve that gives me 9.4:1 comp ratio. The heads that were on the engine were peanut style with valve rotators on in. and ex. New heads have only rotator on ex. valve. I switched over valves from original boat heads to my new large oval ports. (Valves from 74 heads didnt look so good). As for a casting number Isee two different ones, 336781 and B28-74. if you know anything , good or bad about these heads, please let me know. My 1TON truck, also with 454 and similar set up runs like a bear. ( That engine is 1973). Thank you.

Yup, that's a nice piston to use with 109cc chambers. My book says you'll have 9.5:1, and I'd guess about 450 to 460 horsepower like ursus did. I did a 454 like yours for another member, BGIII, and he bought a really nice Ultradyne flat-tappet hydraulic cam from KAAMA, as he had ordered two of them and hadn't used them. You might consider checking to see if he still has the other one on his bench. If he does I'm sure he'd make you a nice deal on it.

The 781 heads (last 3 numbers are 119 cc open chamber heads. I use them also. I believe they are close to the 049 heads which are the best ovals for marine use. You will have to have the 1.88 and 2.19 valves installed and bowl work at least to get them performing.

If they are 119cc you're going to want to use the L2465 piston. They come with pin retainer grooves.

No rotators. Replace with hardened spacer.
3 angle job.

454 with 240@050 will be a bit soft on the bottom. Might want to plan to keep a separate prop for towing.

If you use the stock center rise exhaust, then please take GREAT CARE to keep the mating surfaces between the risers and the manifolds perfectly flat and use fresh gaskets with copperkote.

have fun

Hey JW. I been hanging out here for a while and consider my self a pretty good carport mechanic. PLEASE listen to Crazyhorse Formula31 and Dyno, they are all GREAT guys and I bet would e-mail you an exact parts list. Doug Herberts is a great place to get parts but some of the guys around here can get stuff even cheaper. I dont mean to tell you what to do or want to stunt your creativity but on this 330hp up grade PLEASE build as they say and you will love it. Thanks Rag's

Hey, Formula31. If you are shure my 781 heads represent 119cc chambers, then the Speed Pro L2465F piston with 10.2-1 116.9 chambers does what for me with 119cc? L2399F will only do 9.0-1 with 116.9 chambers

Have a great high horsepower new year. I thank you all for your opinions and ideas. Keep them coming Thanks again JW454. .030 Or is it 461.

JW454, my information says the 781 head chamber volume is 110 cc. You need to verify this before you buy your pistons! If you can say for sure that they've never had the chambers worked on and haven't been milled a bunch of times you're probably safe, but it's so easy to check the chamber volume, as well as a learning experience, that it's worth it.
The L2399F+30 will give you 9.5 to 1 c/r with the 110cc chamber.
Here's another point to ponder; I'm freshening up my supercharged 509's and am having the deck surface of the blocks refinished. .015 was removed from the deck just to get it parallel with the crank bores, which will put the pistons .005 below the deck surface. In my opinion this is a machining operation that's well worth the money.

Hey CrazyHorse, How do you check the combustion chamber volume. Formula31 says he runs the same heads and they are 119cc. My machine shop and you say that they are 110cc. Just dont want to get wrong pistons. Also any ideas for a good marine carb? I currenly run an Edelbrock 750 on my truck 454. I have had my share of Holley double pumpers, and they run stronger than the Edelbrock, but far less trustworthy. Dont want any seeping float bowls, stuck floats, or defective needle and seats. Boat 454 has Q-JET, probably 850 or 895cfm. Cant see useing that carb with new engine. Cant afford more than 450.00-500.00. How many cfm do you think it will take to spin engine up to 4800-5000rpm? Thanks. JW 454.

Hey Guys, I also have a Lunati 30218 cam. Specs are 114LS 112 centerline .540in .550ex duration is 225in 235ex @ .050 . How do you think this cam will run in comparison with Edelbrock RPM.

Put a spark plug in your head. Lay it on its back so that the gasket surface is level in both horizontal planes.

Find a piece of plate glass and drill a 1/8 dia hole in it with a cheapo carbide masonry bit in a fast drill. Stick masking tape on both sides of the glass where you are going to drill, and lay it on a piece of hardwood so your bit will not break thru too quickly.

Smear vaseline on the head's gasket surface and press the glass onto it. You should "see" the vaseline seal the piece of glass. Use a syringe with cc measurements to add rubbing alcohol until it fills up to the glass. Look thru the glass and tp it soall air bubbles come out.

However much you added is your chamber cc.

Can't use water, as it has too much surface tension. Everclear will work as well as rubbing alcohol PLUS you can drink it when you are done (mix it with a can of concentrated OJ if you aren't feeling particularly manly).

http://www.mortec.com/bbc.htm

Everyone of these 781's Ive ever cc'ed came out very close to 119. I typically use brake fluid or transmision fluid.

That Lunati cam will be better than the Edel rpm. If you do use it, I would time it 4 degrees advanced so that #1 intake c/l is at 108.

Oh, they can be angle milled to get them down to 110 cc's. Just be sure a good shop does it and then re-cuts the intake side too. If you do angle mill, its a good idea to have a spare done right them so youll have it when you need it.

I think he needs all the cc it presently has. He is running 10.5:1 pistons.

I will definately try that trick for cc,ing the heads. Do you think the Lunati cam is a better choice because it has less duration (less chance of reversion), or another reason? Im the type that will install the one cam and allways wonder if the other would have worked better. JW454.

There can be lots of arguments on cam choices. My choices are based on safety (reversion)with my silent choice exhaust (Gil magnum choice) and fuel (89 octane only). That limits my compression and as such, my cam options. Ive always believed that high compression and lots of overlap are not necessary and may even be counterproductive in a marine engine. Lots of lift, yes, and thats why a roller cam does so much better, it can give you the lift and airflow without needing excessive duration. But, the valve lift muct be proper for the heads and the airflow. .550 is about it for the large oval port heads unless they get worked over real good. Ive also believed that the difference in a few points from one cam to another doesnt show much in a boat so I try and lean on the conservative side.

In a nutshell, Big cam without big compression and big heads (and exhaust) doesnt work. And big compression means racing fuel and lots of maintenance. For what you want to do, you will be much happier with smaller cam. I run the Edelbrock torker 2 cam on my 454's. Could i make more power, sure, but for what I want to do, they are perfect.

Oh, and I do run the 2399 pistons. I think Crazy choice is better for power but Im chicken with the crap fuel I have available.

I'll build them with the L2465F (with approx. 119cc heads) but the owners get told what's gonna happen if they don't run quality fuel.
Plexiglass can be used instead of real glass if you wish.
By the way, Formula31 has been around the inside of big-blocks for a while and I've never seen him give bad advice yet. He's ok for a cruiser guy.:D

Im going to try that Lunati cam, hope it KICKS. With 2465 pistons, what will comp. ratio be with 119s. (Still have to cc the heads) Formula31, do you think lunati will hit harder out of the hole than stock .271in .282ex @cam lobe, (not shure of duration). Stock cam felt very mild. Even 454 MAG cam .300 in-ex @ cam seems mild. Still need carb ideas. Do you think large ovals will make good improvement over peanut heads.

review 454-330 build up
 

I was intrgued, to come across the 330-454 build up you guys had posted at one time. I found it very helpful and very discouraging. Formula31, that Torker2 cam that you like to run isnt far off from Performer RPM. what else do you run in your 454? And how does it run? I also saw where JAY13 had a lousy time with his. Have you done any mods JAY to rectify your dissatisfaction with the project? Im about the same build (still havent decided on cam) Edelbrock rpm , high lift but long duration or Lunati 30218 .540-.550 [email protected] Want to crank high rpm horsepower, but dont want to be dog out of the hole. JW454.

The guy that built Jays engines the first time around didnt know what he was doing for marine. From what I understand, he used the large oval port heads as they were. I never heard the whole resolution to his engine problems. They do need the larger valves installed, hardened seats on the exhaust, and bowl work at least. There is another old thread about 454's on steroids but I cant remember the actual name. Put your money in the block, bottom end and valve train.

Dyno did a thread a while back about 330's on steroids. He started out with 330 Mercs and added Merlin oval-port heads w/2.19 intakes/1.88 exhaust, H693CP+30 hypereutectic pistons, E233K+30 rings, resized 330 rods, ARP 3/8 rod bolts, cast cranks turned -.010, CS1140R camshafts(.563/.578, 234/[email protected], 112 degrees lobe c/l) with HT817 lifters, 1404M cam bearings, 3190CP-10 rod bearings, 4400M-10 mains bearings, Cloyes Tru-roller timing chains, FelPro gaskets, Performer RPM intakes with 800 Holley carbs. Blocks were align-honed, decked parallel to the crank bores and zero piston height, bored and honed with torque plates. These are all Federal Mogul part numbers. SuperV's engines are identical except for L2465+30 forged pistons. Waterfoul's engine is the same except for H426CP+30 pistons, GM rectangle-port heads and a CS1139R camshaft. BGIII's engine was identical to Waterfoul's with the exception of an Ultradyne cam he bought from KAAMA.

That cam is very close to Edelbrock RPM specs. Do you know if he had good luck with it? Cam supposedly has power-band of 1500-6500. Sounds like too broad of a powerband to be true. Also peaks 1700rpms from my desired limit of 4800. Lunati 30218 is 2000-5500. What cam will (if either) do you think will get me out of the hole stronger. Also I will be running Revolution Marine exhaust system. I did not hear of any exhaust on Jay 13 engine. Still love to see sight of 330s on roids.

I still say go with the Merc 420 cam. It's a crane cam. Mine pulled hard out of the hole all the way to top. I had propped for 5200 and pulled to it.
Mike

As far as cams go, the 420 Merc cam typically doesn't get rave reviews. Glad it meets your requirements goob.

Waterfoul's cam was a very good selection for his engine/boat package. I understand it ran very well at LOTO last spring. I'll see if I can get him to post in here about the performance.