New Whipple on 500EFI will not start... HELP!!
 

Friend's 36 Spectre, port motor installation done in boat (new 500EFI Whipple system), engine fired up fine.

Starboard motor removed for whipple installation, will not run. We believe that we are not getting fuel. What we know:

Motor will fire with starter fluid indicating spark is there. Coil wire sparks, #1 plug wire sparks.

Fuel pressure is 50 psig at the end of the rail. Fuel bled out until there is no air. Fuel pump runs OK.

Wires to 2 of the injectors test OK with test light (special for injector wire). Can't get to the rest of the injectors. The injectors we tested have different color wires.

Pulled the small fuel rail with the 2 injectors and held the injectors in the rail and turned the motor over. We got one small spurt of fuel out of one injector and then nothing. Injector finally pushed out of the rail and sprayed fuel all over the place so we know there is fuel in the rail.

Swapped ECM's with the motor that will run. NO GO.

Without starter fluid, we get no backfires, stumbles nothing.

Spark plug shows no fuel.

What is the deal? Dustin is not in on a Saturday. HEEELLLLPPPP!!!!!

:( :( :( :(

How much are you opening the throttle? Is the distributor in the right place, has it been timed to 8 degrees? Did you make sure you have the dist. connectors plugged in, do you get an rpm reference on the tach? I would use the computer from the other engine that has started and idled, the other computer may not have a program error which will not let the injectors pulse when cranking.

Dustin

If you can get to them you need to ohm check the injectors-they may have gotten grounded and fried the windings. This occasioanlly happens when an engine is pulled with power still in the system.

Thanks for replying Dustin and InspTech. The distributor was set close to the original position after we put the whipple manifold on. The motor will fire with starting fluid so it is probably not timing. The other motor was within 1 deg. of 8 deg BTC when we set it's timing so we are probably not too far off with this motor.

We tried all sorts of different throttle positions including full shut and WOT.

All the connectors on the distributor and others are plugged in as far as we can tell. Once again, we are getting spark and the motor will fire on starter fluid.

As stated, we tried the other (running OK) motor's ECM. We also tried a stock ECM.

We have a Merc Diagnostic Tool and it communicated with the ECM('s) and showed all monitored functions. No codes have been set during this whole deal.

Insp Tech, Good point, we are starting to suspect the injectors but can not believe that all 8 are fried. Additionally, these injectors were supplied by Whipple and were just installed without power applied.

Thanks for your responses. We really appreciate your help.

Dustin, can you call 337-855-7343?

Tom

I would go back through and double check all your grounds. Take them off, recheck that they are clean, and reground. Make sure you did not miss any. Just a thought

Jon

Just to eliminate any chance of error, check the distributor to see if it's out 180 degrees. With starter fluid, even at 180 out it will lite for a second and shut down.

Check to see that the ground on the starter motor is tight. If not, it can send a signal to the ECM and not allow it to fire. It will still turnover but not allow ignition.

I know these sound improbable, but I experienced both of these problems when we installed our Whipple systems. Dustin walked me thru them and everything is fine now. If you still have a problem tomorrow (Sunday) give me a call and I'll get in my engine room and walk us both thru my fuel plumbing and electrical. My home phone is 954-425-6957. I'll be working on the boat installing the reprogrammed ECM's Dustin just sent, then out testing some new props. If I don't answer the home phone, call my cell at 954-980-2643.

Good luck,

Steve

check to see if your timing is off 180* i made tah mistake once. Did you adjust yoru valves at all? When i installed my blowe ri changed head gaskets and my valves lashing was way to tight and all my valves were opena justa crack and she woudln't run. Wouldn't even fire a single cylinder. Just a though, if you had your heads off.

If it runs with starting fluid than swapp the ECM. Then check the fiel lines. If the timmingt was 180 out it wouldn't run with out a pop or back fire. I am assuming when you say start, you mean start and run until the fluid is used up.

Randy

Did you ever get it figured out?
Good luck,
Dan

I think the ECU was not getting a map signal.

Thanks,
Dustin

Update on 500EFI's with whipples on 36' Spectre Cat.

Found the problem with the motor. Whipple sends a MAP sensor extension cord to hook up the stock wiring harness to the whipple 2 bar MAP sensor. Two of the wires were crossed on the extension cord. That took about 20 hours of troubleshooting.

Ran the boat today. Calm water, 36" Bravo I's, 1.5 gears, ~60 deg F. The boat ran 124 mph (GPS) banging the rev limiters at 6,000 rpm. More speed is there baby!! Previous speed was 106 GPS. Only problem is black transom soot like with the stock motors.

We'll keep you updated.

I'm glad you found the problem. I hate electrical problems! The results seem worth the headaches.
Dan

Thanks for the reply. I think the owner is happy with the Whipples. Other than the speed, the boat gets on plane quicker and accelerates hard throughout the rpm range. Correction, the drives are 1.36 gears, not 1.5 like I previously reported.

The installation is easier with the motor out of the boat but is still a pain in the butt. However, 20 mph increase ain't nothin' to sneeze at.

Sounds like it is time for a drive ratio change to 1.26 and IMCO lowers with nosecones if not allready. I want to hear 135mph. That is my ideal boat.

I need help again.
 

As Thunderstruck said, we ran 124 about a month ago. I changed gears since I was banging the rev limiter. Did not run the boat until Saturday.

The right hand motor will not run above 2600 rpm. It back fires and dies. The PCV valve and the vacuum line blew off of the blower and ruined the seal between the blower and the intake.

The left hand motor does the same thing at a higher rpm.

I am lost here. I did not do any maintenance between the runs other than changing gears.

Did not check the timing except to ensure that the distributor was tight.

The plugs are not fouled.

I have two sets of ECMs. Both programmed by Whipple. We tried both.

I just want to thank Thunderstruck for the help over the last two months. He is very knowledgeable and was probably a Mercruiser mechanic in another life.

Cat Daddy,

Assuming that nothing else has been touched except the gear ratio, your ECM's may need re programming. What happens when you change ratios is that fuel, spark and air demands are all different than they were previously programmed for. The lower the ratio, the more load on the engine.

I experienced somewhat what you did when I went from 1.50 to 1.35 ratio, except my stalling occurred at 3,000 RPM. Once thru that it was fine all the way to WOT. Dustin reprogrammed the ECM's and she runs fun now (albeit a little rich at idle and we're working on that).

Changing ratios is akin to driving a stick shift car and setting it up for running based on shifting from 1rst thru whatever high gear would be, say 6th.. With the outdrive ratio change, now you're starting out in "3rd. gear and at 2,600 you're shifting to 6th. gear" and the ECM's going nuts.

Just for yucks, check to see that the manifold pressure line from the plenum to the MAP sensor is still attached at both ends. It fits over a barb about 1/2 way back on the plenum down low.

As to blowing out seals, we just removed our blowers after about 80 hours use (putting on the new engines) and of the three engines, one of them had the seals blown out at the plenum level, not where the blower attaches above the chiller. Even though they were gone, the black sealant Whipple uses was still there and we didn't notice any difference in the operation of the engine.

When we reinstalled the blowers, we used the sealant that Mercury uses on their outboard powerheads AND the rubber seals just to be certain.

We'll be dynoing the new engines at Chief this Tuesday and Wednesday and will be happy to provide any numbers from those runs to any Whipples users. The only difference between the new engines and the regular 500 EFI, is the new ones have Merlin heads with 310 cc intake runners and Crane Roller lifters instead of the GM's that come std. on the 500 EFI.

Good luck, and call if you have any questions.

Steve