IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

I just bought a single engine boat equipped with an IMCO dual ram system, hydraulic to the helm. I'm getting amost no power assist. The steering effort feels the same, engine running or not. Here's what I've done so far:

Drilled orifice
Cleaned filter
Installed new power steering pump
Double checked hose routing
Cracked pressure line from pump, at helm, plenty of pressure (messy!)
Called Ron at IMCO and Dino at Teague, no idea what's happening
Checked for air in the cylinders, none

So, do I have a bad helm pump? Lines clogged somewhere? The previous owner told me it'd always been stiff. Dino and Ron said it should be fingertip easy.

Any ideas?

Jim

Jim, is it only stiff at idle or is it stiff all the time? It has always been stiff at idle and becomes very light at just above idle, say 1200-1500 RPM. That's why I recommended a different PS pump pully to speed up the pump, have you tried that?

Also, the helm is not a pump. It is a valve that allows fluid to flow as the steering wheel is turned. Ought to be a pretty reliable piece of the system.

John

Hi John!! It's very stiff from idle to 2500 rpm (as high as I like to rev it in neutral). At higher speeds, it feels better but I'm thinking that's just the prop helping. My friend Spencer's Exciter has a full manual, non assisted) dual ram system and his feels about the same. At speed, it feels OK. Thanks for yoiur response!

Jim

Haven't tried the smaller pulley yet, but since it doesn't get better with engine speed, I don't think that'd help.

You're probably correct about the speed at which the power steering begins to help since 2500RPM is a very awkward speed for the boat - a bit above idle but not quite on plane. On plane the system no doubt works well. That's the way the system has always worked since it was installed.

I'm curious how your friends system could be working as described since any hydraulic system of this type is by definition a "power steering" system. There has to be a hydraulic pump creating line pressure.

My sense is that is it working the way it was intended.

.According to the guys at IMCO and Teague, that system should be fingertip light at idle. One finger, they both called it.

It's just like the system in my other boat. It's a Hynautics type system. Run from the helm pump. No power assist at all. (Yes it's a helm pump in the red boat, too. That's why you can steer with the engine off.) The line pressure in a Hynautics system is provided by the helm. I've had this system in several boats. They are very smooth, but require LOTS of turns, lock to lock. That's why they are usually not used in performace boats. Spencer's boat is a former raceboat. They did not care about low speeds.

Never occured to me about the helms "pumping" effect when not under assist by the PS pump. So obviously the helm displaces fluid while the wheel is turned - that makes sense. It then makes me wonder if the volume of fluid moved by the steering wheel is matched to the volume of fluid required to move the rams.

Does the receipt for the system that I gave you say what "volume" the helm is? I looked at IMCO's website and there are several choices in Char Lynn helms. I wonder if when the system was put together by Teague if the correct helm was selected?

Sure would've saved me some aggro around the docks if I even knew the system wasn't working that way it could've...

JohnJan

How many turns lock to lock? Around 3 turns will give you the one finger steering. I had the same problem with my WMP. Helm had too much volume, hard steering. I also found the steering shaft wasnt lubed and created some drag. My friends has 3 turns lock to lock and it is one finger. Mine has less cant remember how many exactly. Maybe I should go for a boat ride and recount them. But mine is still not "one finger" even after changing to a smaller volume helm..
Hope this helps..

Good luck
Dick

I'll check it tomorrow... I think it's about 3 turns lock to lock.

John, the reciept doesn't specify the volume. I'll call Dino tomorrow and see if he can figure it out from a model number.

BTW: the boat is just plain MAGNIFICENT! It 's everything you said it was, and more. The steerring thing is just a minor glitch. The boat is about perfect!

BTW: The helm is a HCK26 with a #3 steering wheel according to the note from Dino.

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Culprit found! I removed the filter completely, and I now have power assist! I had previously cleaned the bronze filter element, but I guess it's just too clogged. I'm ordering a two new ones from Teague today. Thanks for all the help!

Jim

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Where is the filter located?

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

See the silver aluminum canister on the transom, starboard side? That's it!

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

how often should you clean or replace the filter??

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

I'll be cleaning or changing mine every two oil changes or so...

I don't know the recommended sevice interval. Anyone?

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

OOPS! Still have the problem! Ran the boat today, with and without new filter. Results the same...

Here's the symptoms:

Start the boat.
Turn the wheel lock to lock, very nice and free, no vibration, a 1 on a 10 scale in effort.
Second lock to lock, a little vibration, getting harder, 3 on a ten scale.
Third and subsequent turns lock to lock, very hard, 8 or 9 on a ten scale.
Kill the engine. Let it sit for a minute.
Same as above, at first it turns easy, then gets very hard.

When I looked into the reservoir as my buddy turned the wheel: first turn, I saw lots of fluid moving and the level dropped about an eighth of an inch then came back up. Next turns, NOTHING! Looked like a pool in there, no movement. Weird!

Somehow it's building pressure, but not releasing. When I kill the motor, and sit for a while it releases the pressure.

Any ideas??

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Could a restriction in the low pressure return to the reservoir cause this? The low pressure return runs through a cooler before returning. Could this be clogged?

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Do you have a seperate resevoir for the PS fluid or are you using only what is held in the PS pump?

My single ram system worked fine on the PS but my dual ram system has a seperate resevoir and as I have followed Hydraulic steering threads it seems people with dual systems and no extra resevoir seem to have harder steering.

When you turn it does fluid flow from one ram and not the other? If there is a blockage that might help you idenify which side it is on. IE turn right fine, left no fluid comes back. The left ram is compressing but no fluid is moving back into the resevoir.

Also on a dual ram system one side always has to be under pressure when turned so maybe after you turn it lock to lock you have moved fluid out of the resevoir to presurize the system but no excess capacity. When you let it set the pressure drains off and refillls the PS resevoir.

Maybe after you run it and it drains down have someone pour more fluid in and see if it works but when the pressure bleeds off it will puke out so be read for that.

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Thanks Von Bongo! The fluid in the reservoir barely moves, even turning the steering lock to lock. I see movement in the fluid, (a little), on the first revolutions. Then after the pressure builds, nothing. I think it's got to be a return line issue.

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

I have been told that some hoses will colapse when put under pressure. The inner liner will get fluid on the outside of it.. between the inner and outer.. Drawing at straws here, but maybe what's going on. Hook a hose to the return line and put it in a can.. see if it pukes fluid.. Not sure how much pressure is there, so be careful..

Good luck
Dick

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

I have resevoir on dual ram. Steering is one finger from idle (700rpm) all the way up. I am going to guess the helm is the problem. Did the person that you bought the boat from the orginal or second owner. Could it be plumbed wrong? Maybe someone took it apart & forget what line went to where.

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Thanks Turbojack! I've traced the lines, and they look right. I'm going to call IMCO, Teague and Char-Lynn tomorrow and see if they have any ideas. It has to be something simple...

Do you boat in Galveston Bay?

Jim

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

OK It's REALLY fixed this time!! Found the problem to be the orifice nut, (the nut that the high pressure side connects to...).

I bought a new PS pump, and on the way home read the package inserts... duh! One read: "When re-installing orifice nut, ensure that the O-Ring doesn't cover THIS hole...or you'll have no power assist. " with an arrow to a small hole in the side of the orifice nut.

Mine wasn't covered, but it was BLOCKED. I pulled the one from the new pump, and sure enough, it flowed air. So, I drilled out the hole, reinstalled and VOILA! I now have TRUE power steering! From dead idle on, it's pinky finger light. Yippee!

Tomorrow is 70 degrees, so a sea trial is in order! Thanks for everyone's input on this!

Jim

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Great thread. I'm installing a dual ram full hydraulic steering on my AT this spring. Now I now what to look for if I have this type of problem!! :D

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Jim would you mind posting a foto of where this hole is that you're talking about?

I think i have the same problem you described but can't figure out what hole you're talking about.
thanks,
dean

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Yeah I'm curious for future reference as I have the IMCO system on mine.

Also along hthese lines, I heard there's a trick to aligning the steering wheel up centered with the drives which occasionally strays off especiall yin rough waters. Trick was something like turn the wheel to the stops and hold pressure until the wheel spins freely then line up; turn three turns center and you're done. Has anyone tried this or has more specific instructions to d it with IMCO full hydraulic steering with twins?

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

[QUOTE=bglz42]OK It's REALLY fixed this time!! Found the problem to be the orifice nut, (the nut that the high pressure side connects to...).

I bought a new PS pump, and on the way home read the package inserts... duh! One read: "When re-installing orifice nut, ensure that the O-Ring doesn't cover THIS hole...or you'll have no power assist. " with an arrow to a small hole in the side of the orifice nut.

Mine wasn't covered, but it was BLOCKED. I pulled the one from the new pump, and sure enough, it flowed air. So, I drilled out the hole, reinstalled and VOILA! I now have TRUE power steering! From dead idle on, it's pinky finger light. Yippee!






Bringing this thread back to life... I have a similar problem here.... full hydraulic steering set-up (Marine Machine). I have very stiff steering at idle until say 12-1500 rpm and up, I've been told to drill the orfice as well, and I did so in the center of the fitting. However when drilling the side orfice, are you refeering to the small hole in the recessed area or at the end? (see pic) I was unsure which to do. Also, what size did you drill each orfice?

thanks for any help!

MARK

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

It's the upper hole. Be careful when drilling out the main orifice, the upper hole will close up with "drill boogers". Also be careful to put the o-ring back in the right spot. If you cover that little hole, no power steering...

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Thanks! I'm gonna give it a try today....

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

I don't remember seeing anything about 'drilling the oriface" in my instructions. I have a single ram full system that works great (one finger) from idle on up. I did not do any drilling?

Re: IMCO Dual Ram steering problem
 

Sometimes you have to drill 'em, sometimes you don't. Length of boat (lenght of hose), strength of pump, etc. A lot of variables. Sometimes they tell you to run a smaller pulley to get the volume up, sometimes you have to run a separate reservoir. It all depends on the application. Dave, sounds like you nailed yours the first time.

Jim

Where please is this ORIFICE NUT on the PS pump or on the merc steering valve?

It's on the power steering pump, the big nut that the tube runs into.

Thank you for your quick reply. I'll have a look...

I mounted a external ram and cannot turn the steering wheel anymore. We went back to the original merc system and the same issue occured... so we are f...ed! :( But I'll let you know...

He there,

I did the ps pump doctor today!! We went back from external steering to original merc but steering wheel was almost not moving. Then we drilled a bigger orifice hole into the nut on the hydraulic pump - same sh...!

After all we took the complet steering cable out from the helm to the merc cylinder and saw that it was bent inside the aluminum pipe where the cable will be fixed to the tiller arm.

This pipe broke right away apart next to the big adjustment nut on the left. So we tried to reweld it but the nut was steel and the pipe is done in aluminium!! F...ed again!

When taking the cable apart from the helm we saw it is also pretty much of play in between the gears. So we decided to go definitely to full hydraulic and draw all this original merc stuff away...

Thanks for your help!

End of the story. Cheers!