Help I'm in starter He!!
 

OK I'll try to keep this short, I built a 454 this spring out of parts I bought from off the board gen 4 block a mag crank and rods. merlin heads and a flywheel off a 330. I used the starter off my old 330 and cant make it work...it grinds like a biotch! put on a new ring gear last night and a truck starter same issue. are the combinations of parts that could this where did I go wrong??????help

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

you sure?looked like a straight cut gear to me.....thanks I'll check tonight.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

My 454 had the same problem no matter what I did It waould grind and dissengage. I finally got rid of the high torque marine starter and bought a regular automotive starter in and no problems since. No one could figure it out I had the old starter rebuilt, we thought the ring was backwards, thought I had the starter for the 165 tooth flywheel instead of the 190 tooth or something like that. The bottom line was that the starter was torquing on the block and couldn't be rigid enough to turn the motor without kicking out. good luck.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

ARRRRRG!!!I'm going to pull the starter off my other engine tonight and try it.....if its ok i'll match that one......

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Remind me not to tie up next to you....automotive starter....gas fumes in bilge= BOOM!!!!!! :eek: ;)

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

ttt anyone else???

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

The 454 flywheel should have a machined step on the OD that the ring gear will bottom out on. I am assuming that when you replaced the ring gear, that you made sure it was bottomed on this step. I am also assuming that the flywheel was bolted on the right way - it should also be doweled with one dowel.

If that is ok, then your starter should work. Ditch the automotive starter - it is not explosion proof like it should be for marine use. You should get an ARCO marine starter- they make a gear reduction model (which I have on my 454 - Model 30450) (http://www.arcomarine.com/2004PDF/Page%2019.pdf)

Then you need to check the clearance between the ring gear teeth and the drive gear teeth. If the clearance is too tight, the bendix drive gear will not fully engage when it is thrown into the flywheel ring gear. Evidence of this will be that only the front of the teeth on the drive gear and the back edge of the ring gear teeth will be chewed. The clearance can be increased by using .010 or .015 shims between the starter and the block (they go on the flange that the bolts screw into). This should do the trick. Make sure the starter bolts are NEW and torqued properly. The starter will not move if done right.

If you have too much clearance (as evidence of the tops of the ring gear and drive gear teeth being chewed up) you probably have the wrong starter for your motor.

Good Luck!

-Larry :cool:

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

If it is grinding, it sounds like it is too close to the flywheel. Go to the parts store and ask for a pack of starter shims. Put a few on and it should be fine.

Let us know what works !!!

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I had this problem with a new starter from GM on a big glock truck I had a few years back.I shimmed it but couldn't get it right.It turned out to be the starter.Try another starter marine or not to see if it fixes the problem and if it does get a new marine unit.I agree with using spark proof starters and alternators but it blows me away how many people and OEM boat builders have cheasy wiring in there boats.A spark can come from any where.I heard a story a few years back of a guy exploding himself in a car that had a gas tank that was venting to the trunk and a poorly wired stereo amp that sparked and went up.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Dyno,

I might have a quick solution for you on this problem, too! I have flywheels and marine starters from my 454 Mags sitting in boxes in my storage. You have my number ... call me if I can help you on this.

Chris

I'll be on a poker run on Lake St. Clair today but I will try getting ahold of you.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

its been hell...I even took the starter off my good motor and it sounded like hell too. I could see it flexing some so I cranked on it with a 1/2 rachet and cracked the housing......damn it! now I need two... Chris what do you need for both starters? call me at your convinience.... Don 616-403-4482

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Sut it turns over fine...I thought the same thing at the beginning of this mess I pulled all the plugs and rolled it over right away....no problem.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

wisetale, big block auto starters are closed just like marine the only diff. is the silicone on the connections. :)

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

For real???I've used auto starters in the past becouse I was in a pinch and a tight a$$ just ran the blower a little longer before starting....I know delco makes a marine starter that looks just like the auto one....the Merc ones are smaller gear reduction one right?

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

pretty sure, I tried everything I could to stick with the small ,arine starter cauyse I didn't want the weight of a big starter hanging there especailly with the beating I put my boat through, but It has been fine. Not sure about the reduction but you gotta make sure you got the right # of teeth on the starter gear cause there are 2 options.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

so how many teeth are ther supposed to be on a marine starter? 168 on the flywheel but how many on the bendix????

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

:confused: Gotta look, can't remember. Are you sure you have the 168 tooth flywheel? It is the more common one, mine is 168, I'll check on the bendix drive gear later. :)

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

yep 168 teeth I counted them last night!

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

this may show my inexperience, but are'nt there left hand rotation and right hand rotation marine starters??

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

not for stern drives.....they are the same, in boards they might.... I'm not sure.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I asked MES Marine, a starter company, about the number of teeth on their starter.
My old starter (10MT) had 11 teeth and the new MES 5399M-HT (mini hi-torque) had 9 teeth. This is suppose to be a direct replacement for the older 10MT. They said the geometry of the new starter ( the relationship between the gear and the mounting bolts) has compensated for the difference in the number of teeth between the two starters. I see the Arcomarine starter mentioned above has 11 teeth. This is also a direct replacement for a 10MT.
Is anyone using the Tilton Severe Duty Marine Starter?

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I was worried about the difference in the number of teeth too!

I just replaced my starter in Merc Big Block ('94 engine).
Old starter was the original style (big/heavy) and had 11 teeth.
New Delco gear reduction starter (smaller/less weight) has 9 teeth.
(Eddie Marine part # 305-15)

WORKS GREAT!

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

They make em that spin either way. The "wrong way" is used on a reverse rotation motor OR on a forward mounted application (odd bellhousing).

And I couldn't care less if you want to run an auto starter, but if you've ever had them apart side by side, you'll see that there's a lot more to a marine starter than a USCG stamp.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Are you using the correct starter bolts? Metric or SAE? If you are trying to put a metric starter on a standard block, or if God forbid you are just using 3/8 bolts, you willl have nothing but starter gear meshing problems. The knurled portion of the starter bolt should extend from the starter housing into the engine block approx 1/4". The knurled part should fit snug in the starter with no slop at all.
I like the later model 5.7L truck starters (GM) 1996 and later. These are a small gear reduction starter that are very high torgue. Internally they are the same as a Marine starter. The marine version just has a longer Battery stud and is corrosion treated. These will fit standard or metric applications with the correct starter bolts.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Are the new gear drive starters metric? I have had a ton of problems using them on a 93 gen5 block. It seems they torque sideways untill the teeth don't mesh and then they grind loud!

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Yes they are metric, just use metric starter bolts and you will be in business. Metric and SAE bolts both have 3/8 NC threads. The difference is in the shaft diameter of the bolt.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Thanks, I'll mic'em and see.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

im having the same problem, small gear reduction grinding every now and then,pulled that biotch off six times, shimed 4 diff waysseems if i tighten tit it looks as it twist on the block why? im buying a new one tomorrow if that dont work i will go with a bigger housing type factory type.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I'm using the Tilton small size high torque starters....and one is not engaging properly with the flywheel. I'm just going to remove & rebuild it and keep it as a spare and buy a new one. Hopefully, it is as simple as that.

"Help...I'm in starter hell" I should have known for Dyno/Don to come up with that one----too funny! :D

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Are you using the right (starter) bolts? Yes this sounds silly but I had a guy install a hi-torque starter used some bolts from the local hardware store and they would allow it to move around enough to make the starter grind and not engage. You need the right indexing bolts to keep it from moving around. I have seen this more than once!

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I just read the first page did not see SteveH's post...... I think he has it there for ya!

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Check bolt length too. My bolts were bottoming out but it was not noticeable until you cranked the starter and it would shift down a few thousands of an inch.
A knurled indexing starter bolt is mandatory as recommended in the previous post.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I guess we'll have to check that all out because I had the starters rebuilt before they went on last year so, we'll just have to take a look and see what's going on.

This has been a very good/informative thread. Thanks for all the input from everyone. "HELP...I'm in starter hell" ---still too funny! :crazy:

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

well i bought a new gear reduction starter,with new bolt put it on and it seems to be working good i will cross my fingers and hope i dont have to pull it back off :(

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Dyno, On the older Chevy blocks mostly in 4X4 trucks the machining tolerance on the blocks weren't so great. We used to always try to keep the starter with the original block but when you couldn't then you have to either shim the starter or machine the mounting pad down, depending on wether it is to tight or to loose. Shimming is easy if it's to tight. Sounds like your's is to far away from the flywheel. If you can see the contact of the gears, take the solenoid off of it and manually engage the starter. If it's not deep enough then you can either mill the mounting pad down or I have filed them down to raise the starter a little at a time to get the tooth contact you like. Should be deep in the ring gear with out bottoming. Hope this helps. I'm in michigan also, been running to Muskegon a lot lately, if you can't get it. Let me know.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I just converted my 502 blower motors to 540 NAs. The old starters wouldn't even think about turning my motors over without hooking them directly to my duallie batteries, but then they smoked like hell. I bought two new starters from www.mesmarine.com - they work like a charm (I think the model is MES-5399MHT)! If they won't turn your engines over, something else is wrong. No shimming or anything...

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

I have changed over 100 starters. I never ever had to shim.
Usually something is wrong with the starter nose. If I ever had a problem I used another starter. Starter bolts also are different from regular bolts and align the starter better. BBB

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Just an update on my post from last spring. Both of these #@$%$ starters have now knocked teeth completely off of my flywheels. When it happened on the starboard engine, I attributed it to something I did. Now it's happened to the port engine, and I can hear indications in the starboard that it's happening again. It's late in the season and I don't feel like pulling both engines, so I guess my season is over.

Re: Help I'm in starter He!!
 

Also had this problem this summer with a customer that needed a starter.
Changed starter and found out manifolds let go and let H2o in motor and he tried to start it and with the high torque starter. It is very possible to remove a few "flys" from the flywheel due to ingestion or other issues ! Unfortunate for him he had to pay big money to have someone else change the $13 ring gear because I was way too busy, and he needed the boat for the weekend and still didn't get it in time... BBB