Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Probably pretty simple, but I don't know trailers.

2000 RoadRunner triple-axle, disc surge brakes:

Sometimes the trailer will NOT back up. It appears to be that the surge brakes are locking up upon engaging reverse in my truck ( 2004.5 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins ).
This can present a problem when attempting to launch the boat, as most of us prefer to launch "boat first".

Any thoughts ?

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

This may occur because as you back the trailer, it assumes it's weight is actually shifting forward and engages the brakes. You should be able to place a piece of metal in in the gap in front of the surge plate on the neck of the trailer. It will keep it from sliding and engaging the brakes. Be sure to remove the metal before getting on the road. Hope that helps.

Jon

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

It does not appear to be an electrical problem.
I have now clamped a couple pieces of steel between the tongue pins and the neck of the trailer to keep the trailer from sliding. Seems to work proper now. . . I'll just be using the clamp for launching, not driving, until I can resolve the issue. There must be some kind of 'damper' to prevent the slide mechanism from engaging unnecessarily. This'll be good enough to get me in the water tomorrow for the SCOPE Poker Run . . . hopefully.

Tempest - I keep my boat on a lift in Huntington Harbour. Fountain 32 Fever. . . BTW, I am originally an Easterner, and I know damn well what a Midnight Express is. Always liked 'em.

See ya on the water.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Holy cow, glad your in CA and not in IL. If you hook up your electric correct you can throw away your steel and c clamps and baling wire and duct tape and trailer your boat like everybody else. If that don't work you can always launch the boat truck first.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Rouxsterre, do you have the round or flat electrical connection to your trailer? if flat, there isn't a third pin for release. my driveway is long and steep, I use c-clamp sometimes too.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

These are surge brakes,not electric,right?Unless something new is out there(and it may be)it's ALL mechanical,no wires involved.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Also, I have had a problem if you stop hard then shift into reverse the solonoid locks out, but the brakes are already applied hard. After stopping try giving a little jerk forward then go into reverse. This will turn on the solonoid with no pressure on the master cyl. Worth a shot.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Not all disc surge brakes have the anti-backing selenoid. some use a little lever or pin beside the ball that has to move in an "L" shapped slot to lock out the surge brakes. The preasure has to be off the brakes, then you can move the lever or pin up in the slot. The brakes then will not lock up. If you move ahead first the pin will release and the brakes will work again. The trailer that I had with this type of backing system didn't have to be engaged at the ramp because at the ramp the trailer is pulling backward on your hitch. The only time I had to engage the backing lever was when I was backing into my shop.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

I have had this problem numerous times since having disk brake setups. The C-Clamp method works ok if you are on level ground but I have found that it does not work very well on any kind of uphill grade or in gravel. I would like to take the Dico coupler apart and see if there is room for a pin so I would always have a mechanical lockout option. If anyone has successfully done this please let me know.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

I had a problem like that a while back. In the back of the master cyl there is a bracket w/ 4 holes that 4 solid steel dowells travel through. One of the brackets were bent jamming the steel dowell not permitting the actuator to do it's thing.
Another thing you may check is the backup valve screwed into the back of the master as mentioned. A single wire comes out of the vavle. With the trl attached to the vehicle (ground), run a hot wire to that wire and listen for a click from the solenoid. If it dont click, change it.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

I've been told, when I bought my old trailer, trailers over a certain GVW, must have a mechanism installed to keep the trailer from inadvertantly rolling backward when not hooked up to the rig. There is usually an additional wire in the harness that needs to come from your reverse lights to disengage the brakes. My new trailer has drum brakes and I do not have the reverse brake mechanism. Im not sure if this only comes on disk brakes.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

My 2000 tri axle w/disc has a 5 pin electrical connecter. You cannot back this trailer with a boat on on level ground unless you hook up the extra 5th wire to the trailer brake light feed. I cannot move this trailer in reverse on wet grass empty without the electric hooked up. My buddy's 2001 25 Outlaw with a tandem trailer is the same way. The trailer gets power from the tow vehicle's backup lights to cancel out the trailer brakes. Obviously it only cancels the brakes when you have the tow vehicle in reverse. Of course if you are backing down a ramp or hill the surge system is released and you are relying on your tow vehicle only for stopping. Thats why I laugh when guys on here say their 1/2 ton truck handles their 38' or so boat with no problems.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Now that you've heard all the other stories , all of which are pretty accurate , here's the bottom line :D . If everything is installed and working properly , you can still have problems backingup sometimes.
When you initially come to a forward stop you brakes are engaged....if you immediately try to back up you won't be able to , why? Because you brakes are still applied and no lockout in the world is going to change that!
Whatcha gotta do is roll forward a foot or two and without hitting the brakes( this releases the surge unit on the tongue) then shift to reverse to actuate the lockout. Now the brakes are off and you can back up :drink:

I also had a lockout solenoid go bad and would allow leakage of brake fluid past it. Quick , level back up at the ramp was ok but trying to back up my driveway would cause problems and I had to pull forward and hit reverse again a few time to get in.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

I should start a new thread on this - anyone know how much work/cash to swap out my surge for electric? I already have new truck with the right plug. My surge selinoid needs repair so figured would go the nine yards.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

After coming up with my 'ingenious' plan with the 'C' clamp, and the steel shims, I took the boat to the ramp today. I figure before I break out the jury-rig hardware, I'll just give it a go. Trailer worked flawlessly.

It has happened before, and WILL happen again. It's not electrical.
Next time it happens, I'm gonna give the 'mopower' solution a try:
Given the specifics/constraints of my specific hardware, it seems to make the most sense.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Surge brakes don't have anything electrical to MAKE them actuate.

BUT

They *can* have a lockout solenoid to keep them from actuating in reverse. I've read several explanations on this thread and all are correct, but it sounds like some guys still don't see the whole picture.

We all know that with surge brakes, mashing the trailer towards the truck pushes the master cylinder on the surge tongue and sends pressure to the brakes (drum, disc, or otherwise). This is what makes them work. This is also what makes them lock up in reverse.

What exists to keep them from working in reverse? Several things.

1) Mechanical lockout - pin or latch that provides a mechanical barrier that keeps the tongue from pushing back in the master cylinder far enough to actuate the brakes. This mechanical lockout can be a pin or block or latch. They can be operated by walking back there and activating the lockout OR by an electric solenoid that does it for you. Regardless of the method of actuation, the tongue needs to be "out" or in the pulling position for the barrier to lock into place. This is what has been addressed in several posts in this thread.

2) Hydraulic lockout- similar to a "line lock" on a drag car. A solenoid closes off and disconnects the hydraulics of the master cylinder from the brakes themselves. This can be used two ways. One, if the trailer is in "pull" position when the solenoid is activated, it keeps the brakes from being effective and will allow the trailer to roll freely in either direction. Two, if the trailer is in "stopping" position with the plunger on the tongue pushed into the master cylinder, the brakes will REMAIN activated with the solenoid closed - I have seen this used as a parking brake type setup (these particular solenoids have a hand operated lock that keeps them closed when the power is removed).

3) One way brakes. Disc or drum, there are several types of reverse brake releases that will "cam out" the brakes in reverse and even though they are technically receiving pressure from the master cyl, they cannot grab the wheel in reverse. I have this type in one way drums and it works beautifully.

On any of the electric lockouts, they can be wired so that your reverse circuit (same circuit your backup lights are on) will activate it, OR they can be some "weird" way of activating. Severaly Mycos I have towed require you to stop, disconnect the harness, plug in a small 2-connector plug, and turn on the truck headlights to lock out the brakes...

Roux may have a mechanical lockout, a solenoid operated mechanical lockout, one way brakes, or nothing at all. An inspection will be required to determine what he has and if something is not functioning properly.

As far as the argument about surge versus electric brakes. I personally like surge brakes very well, even though I always have access to trucks with electric brake controllers on them.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

My Myco backs up fine with surge brakes. All is I have to do is look in the mirror and shift into reverse. 1992. I have known some people with these problems on other brands.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

rouxsterre , good work. I had this problem when I first converted to discs myself. It got to the point I had it in 4 wheel low(and smokin the tires :rolleyes: ) trying to get into my driveway. Also seen others at the ramp with the same problem. Works everytime :)

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Drum brakes don't work as well in reverse, which is why you can still back them up with with more throttle. Disc brakes work equally in forward and reverse. Ever notice that when backing down the launch ramp, your trucks front wheels will lock up and slide while your rear wheels still turn?? Front = disc. rear= drum.
The cure is a simple $30 reversing lockout. But go with the deluxe reversing solinoid. It is only a couple $$$ more and will bleed off ALL trailer brake pressure when the truck is put in reverse, where as the less expensive model will not. In other words, if you come to a stop and the trailer brakes are engaged then you try to back up, ain't going to happen since all you did was to block the line pressure still on the brake sides. It does require either locating a cap with a return line, or drilling and tapping into the master cyl reservior to bleed off the line pressure.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

You guys are awesome.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

All good replies to an obviously common problem for many. A couple years ago , my reverse lockout solenoid crapped out, and I needed to make a quick fix to get me going and be able to back up when needed. I simply went to auto parts store, and bought some short lengths of brake line. I tied into the brake line just after the actuator, and put a small ball valve in line with the system. I have it mounted right on top of the tongue behind the actuator. Problem solved. When I need to back up, my wifey jumps out and closes the valve. Works like a charm, and I never did bother to get another solenoid since. It is nice to be able to completely eliminate any potential electrical malfunction in the system.Just be sure you are not already pressurizing the system before you close the valve. And remember to open the valve again when you are under way again on the road. Hey, it may sound primitive, but it works for me.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

I've had this problem before also. I have disk brakes on a Roadrunner trailer. Only time I have a problem is backing up into the driveway since it is an incline the brakes will engage.

To stop it from doing it. You have to TURN ON your lights. Unhook the trailer plug. Then on the trailer side wiring there is a flat connector with blue wire. You will plug just the blue wire into the connector on the truck side. (Can't remember which hole it goes into on the truck side) It will look like a T when you plug it in and you will acctually here it click when you plug the blue wire in IF you have your lights on. Then back up no problems.

Hope that makes sense?

Russ

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

That would be my guess too, another problem i noticed is when i'm backing mine up the drive way if i stop for some reason and put the vehicle in park, disengaging the lockout solenoid, the pressure that the solenoid was holding back feeds to the brakes so when you put it back in reverse their will be a little pressure on the brakes, not enough to keep you from backing up but enough to make the brakes drag, you just have to roll forward a little and put it in reverse again to relieve the residual pressure.

If the problem is intermittent i would just replace the solenoid their only about $30 and if that's not the problem you'll have a spare because the c-clamp deal has to be a pita.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

That is why the deluxe solonoid is best, it relieves the pressure whenever activated. When I ordered my Eagle last summer with the B.U solonoid installed, it was a $200 option. I 'assumed' it would be the deluxe model for that price. I was wrong. :rolleyes: Had trailer for 1 month before I changed it over because I also have to back up my inclined driveway and have to reposition a couple times to get it straight into the garage.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

US1 I had the same problem when I converted. The "good" solenoid is worth every penny and cures all these problems. Zodiac sells a solenoid that isn't worth a sh*t. I'll check my records and post the good brand later on. I got it from SB Trailers in Fresno CA.

When converting you MUST remove the diaphragm from inside the master cylinder. This diaphragm is necessary for drums as they require somewhat higher pressures and need back pressure in the system to work. Discs however, require very low pressures and will not tolerate ANY back pressure.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Drum brakes work just as well in reverse as they do in forward. UNLESS they are double leading shoe brakes like you find on sporting motorcycles made before the advent of modern hydraulic discs (which DO stop better in one direction than the other).

The reason your truck's fronts lock up while the rear's don't is two reasons.
1) on a boat ramp, the front end is lightly loaded while the rear end has all the weight transfer on it (not to mention the tongue weight).
2) on a car/truck, the rear brakes receive only a portion of the braking pressure. Most of the braking is done with the fronts, and they receive the lion's share of the pressure. That's what the brake proportioning valve does. Limits the pressure to the rear.

Pressure for pressure, drums generally require less line pressure (but more fluid volume) than discs (which require more line pressure and less fluid volume). Do a disc conversion on any 60's musclecar and you'll see the difference in the master cylinder pistons (disc masters have smaller pistons, for more pressure). Good reason for this: discs have only a fraction of the surface area of friction material and also act on a smaller effective diameter than a similar drum. Nobody chose discs cause they provided MORE stopping force, they chose them because they were more fade resistant (easier to cool), require no periodic adjustment, and provide a more linear braking feel. They're good on trailer cause they don't trap saltwatr in their innards.

Trailer brakes are another issue. If your drum-braked trailer backs up easily, you may need to adjust the brakes OR you may have one-way backing plates that twist the pads out of the way when rolling in reverse.

Re: Trailer won't back up . . .
 

Problems are related to the brake units themselves. MYCO uses the same surge units as others. MYCO, also uses a reverse lock out on the disk systems.

If you have a reverse lock out.... Check the wire for the reverse in your plug to ensure consistent power and a solid connection.

If that is good apply a 12V hot (+) wire and ensure actuation (you can hear the solenoid activation).

If you do not have a solenoid on the back of the actuator (omitted by some manufacturers and listed as an option) add one and problem solved.

Feel free to give me a call if you have any questions.