The real poop on 500hp's
 

I'm sure that this has been asked in the past. What is the real poop on the 500hp's, as far as spring changes. Is it all, some serial numbers, just the carbed models? I have heard all the above. I have a pair of 95's with 200 hours. Thanks in advance........

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Mostly 1998 and 1999 Carbs. Pull your valve covers and check inner springs and look for metal where oil returns to valley. I've repairs 5 boats so far. One had 2 pounds of valve spring material in oil pan.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Although I didn't weigh it, both of my '99's with 150 hours had a bunch of valve spring pieces in the oil pans. On one motor, a piece spring was actually wrapped around the camshaft. Also, I caught the spring problem too late and one of the roller lifters gave out, breaking the roller off and wiping out the cam lobe.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

My 98's and a friends 99's both had the
disease.

Mine also had the broken roller problem
as 35/25 mentioned.

last year, I changed two sets on a 96',
with slightly over 300 hours, no broken
springs.

Mine are approaching 250 hours since the
"meltdown" and I'll be changing the springs
and lifters soon.

Pull the valve covers, and take a look.

jt

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

I've asked this question before and gotten a few different answers - what about 2002 models with EFI - are they still something that should be changed at the 200-300 hour mark? Thanks

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Guys it doesn't matter if it is an HP500 or a 5.7Liter. Hyd. roller lifters are heavy and its all a spring can do to dampen that enertia load at the medium rpms a boat runs all day..its fine in a C5 running 80mph and turning 1800 rpm, its a little different in a 32fter turning 4600 rpm all day long. Its the nature of all the beast. I just think the HP gets the bad rap since those "blue" bullets are probly thrashed on the hardest.

Good insurance is an on the head spring checker where you can pop the VC off and periodically check the spring pressure. If you have new springs, take a baseline reading with this and when they are below 120# on the seat, change them.

Run a good valve spring with something around 150# on the seat and open pressure of around 440#. This will help control the lifter.

Use aftermarket lifters. I prefer the Morel lifter due to tighter tolerances and better material used to mfg the lifter. RM Builder sells these. They will take more spring pressure and more abuse.

Chris

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

cstraub69, How does a person get ahold of rmbuilder? Does he have a shop or phone we can call? Thanks

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Your best bet is to just change the springs at 200 hours the manufacturer recommends it and for good reason as Cstraub stated those things take a hell of a beating and the chain of events that can follow a spring failure will cost alot more than changing them. Also, while checking spring pressure is not a bad idea it will not show you stress cracks that may be forming in the inner or outer spring.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

What is an average cost to have this service done on two motors? Is it something that can be done by yourself fairly easily or not?

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Very well stated Chris. Usually at 200 hours you will have a few exhaust valves leaking anyways because of the gas quality these days. Especially those guys who put that ARCO or ARCOhole in their motors. More power means more preventative maintenance, more preventative maintenance means less problems.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Might add that Crane did have a Spring problem and were changed to a new Part#. A lot of these motors had them.
Regardless with the roller valve trane it seems that the 200 hour mark is the time to start checking/replacing springs and lifters.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Kaama,
It is best just to e-mail Bob. If you need his e-mail let me know.

Chris

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Kaama/Mark,
You can email me @
[email protected]
I'm putting together a tech sheet and photos of the Morel lifter package today. They are outstanding pieces and packaged with SCCS springs should make for a bullit-proof valvetrain package.
Bob

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

My (new to me) 1999 HP500 carb had 180 hours on it, when I bought it.

I did a top end job on it.

There were two valves spinning, one on each side. No springs were broken.

No leakage between cylinders on the head gasket. It took 4 mils to clean up the surfaces.

The valves, guides, and lifters were perfect, as was everything else viewable with the heads off.

I went back with Comp Cam 929-16's.

Should these be replaced at the next 200 hour interval? I have heard both yes and no. When at 400 hours, I'll likely freshen the whole engine, anyway...
=========
Rmbuilder, would the cam with miles on it need to be changed when changing lifters to the Morel package?
Will that spring package last longer than the 929's?

Thanks,
Kent

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Yea I have heard to use the comp cam spring 929. but its there standard spring not a endurance spring.


Rm how much more are the morel over the cranes??

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Is anybody using Isky 9300 High Endurance 9300 Series spring?
I was wondering how well they hold up compaired to their Tool Room spring.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

You want any valve spring made from Super Clean Vanadium Chrome Silicon. This is the "endurance" material that everyone re-names. Additional process that will increase spring life is electro polishing and Meta-Laxing.

Chris

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Chris, are the same materials and Meta-Laxing you are speaking about in your quote above, in the CSSC springs you were refering to? What does CSSC stand for?

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Kaama,
SCCS is
Super Clean Chrome Silicon I refered to in my post.

Mudball,
It's not necessary to change out the cam, but inspect everything carefully first, then change the lifters and you're good to go.
We have seen less sag and more fatigue resistance in these springs than any other material. Remember, no spring will stand up to surge. When they flash they go red hot and its all over for the spring. Thats why the proper spring is critical.
Strip,
Which Crane # ?

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Meta Lax is a vibrational stress relief. Anyone on here that does high end welding would know. Basicly with frequency waves the part is "shaken" to align the molecules. This great increases longevity of parts including valve springs. Some people do the entire engine.

Chris

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

[QUOTE=rmbuilder]Kaama,
It's not necessary to change out the cam, but inspect everything carefully first, then change the lifters and you're good to go.


rmbuilder,
I am looking at replacing springs over the winter (200 hours) do I also need to replace the lifters at this time or just do a thorough inspection and go from there?

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Its all preventative maintenance people. 200 to 300 hour mark seems to be what most hp owners are doing. Me included. The valvetrain is the weakest part on an engine. You will have to eventualy replace the springs, sooner is better. If you don't believe you should, then don't. And learn. Like mention above, is all high hp engines.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Splash,
Chances are if there is significant spring degradation you have effectively shortened the cycle on your lifters. First check all the springs removed closely. Check for sag (shortening), discoloration, breakage, and if you have access to a Rimac check the open & closed pressure. Your findings there will tell much about the condition of the rest of the components. If you pull the lifters check them for wear patterns on the wheel. You can do a quick field check by running the roller across a smooth piece of marble or granite while holding the lifter body in your hand. Check for any vertical and lateral movement of the roller and make sure it runs the marble smoothly. If you have any doubts I would replace.
Bob

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

I was told that all HP 500's should change springs to, so my 1999 28 Eliminator Daytona cat with 2 HP 500's and 315 hours on the motors I spent $7,000 for new springs, roller rockers, and Lifters. On my boat there is allot of labor because the motors are so close to the outside of the boat is is real tuf to get the exhaust off and after all the work was done and bye the way no broken springs and they did a leak down test on both motors and the leaked down 8% which is like a new motor any way after the work was done the boat ran the exact same speed. So in my case the motors were like new after 315 hours and springs were in tact. To me it was a waste of money. I should have put that $7,000 into some whipples.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Dave,
There are tools available to check spring pressures on the head of an assembled engine. The price ranges $79.00-$1195.00. They are very accurate and would have been a good investment in this case, or finding a shop that uses one has the potential for saving significant $$$$ in such instances. You don't want to play Russian Roulette with your valve train.
http://www.power-t.com/spring/pt-700.html
http://www.intercomp-racing.com/fr_springtorque.htm
http://www.lsmproducts.com/
http://www.wisespeedshop.com/Moroso%20Tools.htm

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Uh, I think that is why they call it preventitive maintenance. However, a lot of boater do not know about it. Take care of the issue before it becomes a problem..

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Anyone have a good source for the ISKY spring and retainers? I'm also looking for a set of the Cometic Head gaskets so if anyone has any ideas of where to pick them up please let me know. Thanks

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Splash,
Infomaniac on this board is an Isky and Cometic dealer. You may want to PM him.

Chris

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

www.nickersonperformance.com is also a great source.

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

I talked to Ohio performance on the AFR heads . I asked them if there putting a better spring that the comp 929 which is a standard spring . He said there using the 26094 endurance spring .It has the same seat pressure and same rate as the 929. This should be a better spring.

I did notice the AFR head have a .200 long intake and a .100 long ex.this would help on the set up height on the 145lbs at the seat.I figure this would not work the spring as hard :D.


Rmbuilder do you think the Morel lifter is comparable to a Crower?

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

I just cked there site, it has a 175 at seat at 1.900, must be the reason for the longer valve the get the seat pres down ,but the rest is the same . It is a silicone spring :D though and I like it because of standard BBC 1.550 dia spring ,not odd ball dia.I have even run the 1.550 on some small blocks I have built :D On the stock head ya might need to open it up?spring Seat

I wonder why there recommend the 10 degree lock over the 7 . The 7 has more meat in it.


Out of all the guys and engine builders on this board does anybody use anything different than the Crane 748 cam in the 500 efis???.I think this cam was probably in the line before the 500efi came out??

Most of the off the shelf cams are cut on 110 or less. so you would have to have a custom ground cam.$$ I have seen some guys have some cut at 114 ,there claim [reason] on the blower motors to cool the exhaust valve???

I know we are over analyzing this especially at this hp level,but when your running these things at wfo at minutes at a time or putting blowers on them it cant hurt :D

Re: The real poop on 500hp's
 

Rob,i think you got the 7 degree and 10 degree locks backwards. The sevens can pull thru the retainer easier because they aren't as beefy,Smitty