Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Not sure with that pan. You can reuse the pickup in the current pump. That is more than likely a slip in that is brazed or welded. If welded, it can tough tp get off. The 10777 pump is threaded for the pick up but I have opened them up with a drill and used slip in pickups. I braze the entire circle on the pickup to keep any leaking. Most welding supply houses carry a steel to cast brazing rod. Make sure the spring is out when you put heat. Seperate the body from the cap also. The 10770 is a slip pickup version of the same pump.

Jeggs sells a 8" & 9" pickup. To measure, sit your oil pan up right on the bottom. Put a straight edge over the rails where the picup will set. Measure down to the bottom of the pan. That will tell you the pickup height. Keep pickup at least 3/8" off bottom of the pan. That is usually built into the pickup.

I know a few people who block off the bypass. With he 30PSI bypass, before the bypass will open, you must have that much difference in the pressure from the outlet leading to the cooler & filter to make the bypass open. You have to have a serious blockage to have that happen. I still agree with tomcat, dirty oil is better that no oil.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

I talked to Moroso and they use to buy the pumps from Dana gear, Melling bought them out last year , They said the Moroso pumps will be a Melling pump.

I called melling they recommended the 10778 which has the steel gear and shaft, the shaft goes thru the bottom housing,and come with a special oil pump drive shaft . it is the same dimension as the 77hv and and will fit the slip fit pick up. prob is nobody stocks it. Scoggins in TX can drop ship it 69.99 plus 9 ship.He said they test every pump ,test for 30psi at idle and dead head [by pass] at 70psi

He also commented on the one's with a c in the part # meaning it has the anti cavitation gruves , he said it was for racing only and will only have 10 psi at idle :eek:

I have run the Moroso pumps before and never had a low oil pressure, Idle was 30 cold and about 20 hot.

Mark or Mike did ya come up with anything?

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

The old blower motor :D

http://members.aol.com/precshun1/dyno.wav

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Making some head way ,finished deburing the block ,Will post somemore picks on the block wed.I spent 6 hours on the 2 blocks Sunday :eek:

There cking head flow tues , well see :eek:

Rob

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

My Old motor in the garage .A true blower crank :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Here is a pick of the rod ,No bushing :( . so its a floating pin style piston with no bronze bushing , some where starting to gall and all of them had slack . The tops of the piston on the side in the 3-9 o'clock position where starting to scuff from the slack.Mark at Precision Marine said he cant believe it did not come apart.Maybe alittle piston slap [noise].Lucky again :eek:

I priced out what had to be done to the rods -new rod bolts,then resize,install bushings and beam polish the rods and it ended up being close to a new set of H beam Eagles where .I know there a jap rod and they machine them here,but I figure its a little stronger than the stock 7/16 dimple rods.

Labor on the rods was about 250.00 and jobber on theEagle rods was 350.00.Jegs get 499.00 and I can get them for 309.00 a set .so jegs is making over 200.00 :eek: So I am getting the Eagles and double ck there clearances when I get them.I been told to ck them by everybody :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Here's the flow #'s on the heads. The heads looked like they had a little bowl work on the intake and very mild on the begining of the intake runner.

The exhaust seats was ruff, still had the ridges on the seat on top and below the seat. it has some bowl work and alittel guide boss and just smothing on the roof.

These #'s are with the old valve job. He said from his expereance it about a 10% increase over stock on the heads. On his sheet he put 2.19 and I think its 2.25, just a typo I guess,I figure Ill go up to the 1.900 on the exhaust and leave the 2.250 on the intake.

I figure Ill clean them up ,they left the rocker stud boss in the intake and the dimple on the exhaust. Ill just smooth them some and polish the exhaust . The combustion chambers are ruff ,I ll take out the seat ridges ,deshroud and polish them up,I have cut down 2 dummy valves for when I am cutting in there as not to hit the seats :D I have a buddy thats got a buret tube /try to make sure the all close.

I guess all this doesent matter with the blower except the combustion chambers,Its fun though :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

I have a buddy here thats a Procharger dealer and he trying to talk me into them .He claims everybody has had problems with the Whipples, The procharger is alot cheaper than the Whipples, Alot! about 2 k each.
I talked to Dustin about the kits and what comes with them and he was alittle short and vague.I wanted to know in detail what it comes with it.

At my Buddy's shop I have helped him install the prochargers so I know what comes with them.you still have to make brackets for the inner cooler and also other stuff :(

I realize that the whipple comes with more stuff also.

On this board I have heard most of the troubles have been with the prochargers.

On the Whipples I have heard they had problems on the programing of the ECM's,But I think I got that covered with Mark at Precision Marine.

what do yall think?

Rob

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

On our poker run last year two boats showed up with Whipple's. A 388 just like yours and a 43 Black Thunder. When it was time to leave the docks, the 43 had one engine that would not run right, loading up, sounded like hitting on 5 cylinders. The other engine was puffing smoke out at start up but seemed to clear up after numerous high rev's.
The 388 was being towed to the ramp on the return trip where both motors let go. Not sure what the problem was.

I still like carbs over the EFI's for the simple fact, I can adjust them right away. I think EFI programming should be done live by running the motors installed in the boats, with the programmer on board.

I looked at the Prochargers also. They are cheaper, but I think the are the worst looking set up from appearance stand point. A good roots blower with twin carbs, just looks great.

I 'm not trying to degrade any blower set up. With proper setup, they all work, sometimes it takes extra effort to get the setup correct after following all directions. I think that is why people have complaints in these forums. They followed all the instructions, but they ended up with a setup that needed extra work. Then they were stuck not knowing where to go, what the fix is, and the manufacturer gets the bashing.

I still think a blower is a high maintenance motor, but you get big power when it works, and you get big bills when it brakes.

I can't believe the rods. What a lousy machine shop that would do hat. I've only seen that one other time. I used Eagle rods with very good luck. I always got the L19 rod bolts.

Good Luck

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Linster makes a lot of good points,as usual. I'll state up front that I've got no first hand experience with Whipples, Prochargers or EFI in boats( I have been involved in some computer reprogramming of street cars). But I have read the numerous posts on this site. Set up correctly, I'm sure they are all wonderful, but that's a big caveat. Assuming the base motor is compatible with the power that's going to be made, my humble opinion is that these addons to include your common Roots type blowers need to be setup on a dyno. EFI reprogramming, larger capacity injectors etc also require dyno testing. The result will be decent idling and driveability as well as proper fuel/spark timing. How many times have we read where a trial and error approach resulted in holed pistons,etc? Or where stock head gaskets blew out after a kit was installed. When you're making lots of power, bad things happen QUICK! I thank my lucky stars every day that I bought a boat where Sterling had just rebuilt the blown 572's. After 140 hours, the frikken things are like diesels. They start well, idle well, run like turbines and all I've had to do is routine maintenance. When they came off the dyno, they were right! For what it's worth...

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

It's weird to see Strip in any other thread than "uncensored" keep the pics coming and good luck with the rebuild! :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Rob: How much hatch clearance do you have above the stock upper plenum? I may have an option for you.

You know what you're getting with Procharger; there' a reason for the low price. By the time you have changed injectors, made the fuel system right and had Mark reprogram, the price advantage isn't there anymore. I have no first hand experience with Whipple, but I hear too many stories. I can only speculate that problems are due to ECU setups that are on the edge and maybe fuel distribution.

Procharger's kit for your engines uses a big intercooler, but it is mounted in the bilge. You need 5 - 6 @ 90 degree elbows to connect the dots. High resistance to air flow makes the blower work too hard and too hot. The Whipple kit uses a small intercooler and dumps the fuel in before the blower and intercooler. No more port injection. All the fuel is dumped into the front of the intake. Does this cause fuel distribution problems? I don't know. But I hate small intercoolers. :mad:

IMHO the best design would use a centrifugal blower, a big intercooler, no elbows and retain the port injection. It should also look good. Sorry for the plug, we now return to our regular scheduled program. :rolleyes:

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Is that the stock rod? Mine looked like this for a 2002 model:

I went with the Eagle rods for the rebuild. The engine builder didn't like pressed pins and GM pistons (rings).

I haven't had any problems with my Vortech on the 500EFI with 100 hours on it so far.

Anybody looking for a set of the stock rods?

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

How much, how many hrs for those rods....might put them in a spare short block :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Strip, I have had good results with the Eagle rods in blower applications (540 CU IN/800 HP). Do opt for the L19 high strength bolts. Also had Eagle stroker cranks with double key in these motors. All held up well.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Fountain Climber

What did those rods come out of? They look like a Eagle rod but you say the were pressed on? Are there any markings on the rod bolts?

I have seen that cut on some Merc diagrams, but all rods I see coming out of motors are GM dimple rods.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Linster,

These are the stock rods from a 500EFI which is why I asked if Stip Pokers were also stock.

Bolts say ARP 8740.

They were pressed fit pins. The machine shop said that it was more cost effective to buy new Eagle rods than have these converted to floating pins. Plus I wanted to get the boat in the water asap.

F

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

I also am use to the Carbs on the Blower motors.And have had good luck with them. but they want fit with a innercooler under the hatch,

I figure the efi if tuned right should be a dependable package . Mark At Precision Marine in La has stepped up on programing the ecms and I am going to let him dyno them also. He has done some similarr set ups like this ,so it should be a simple tune up for him. he also recamended putting the bung in the headers for the afr meter so if we need to tune the motor in the boat afterwards it will be convenient. He is close to me so so I should be good.
__________________
`sutphen30 I am planing on running a fuel return back to the tank. On my Blown Scarab it had a #10 return on it.keep a steady 7 1/2 psi even at 11lbs of boost

lou no mater what there going on the dyno.


tomcat yea I know about the prochargers on the m3's trying to mount the innercooler,they say mount it on the stringer,its prob has about 7 foot of tubing
.The 3.3 stage 3 whipple has a 1 inch taller innercooler and it comes with 65lbs injectors.I did not know about the fuel was going in there :( I guess thats why they where able to but the innercooler below the blower.You would think the rear 7&8 would be rich???

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

I was told that in 2002 the 500 efis started coming with the Manley rods thats in your pick.depending on which Egale rod you got ,you might have gone down in quality. and I think they only charge about 100.00 to put the bushings in the small end. I dont think its that big of a deal in these motors on the floating pins,Just my 2$ worth

Did they rebalance the motor?

f311fr1 yea most people dont go for the extra keyway and the ati dampener.Thanks for the Info .I have never used the import rods before ,the claim there at least better than the dimple rod . I have a buddy thats a WD with Crower and have always ran the billet stuff in the drag cars.They say the Eagle hold up but be sure the ck the sizes!!

Thanks to you guys for all the Imput :D

Rob

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Strip Poker,

The machine shop did rebalance the rotating assembly. After I had the engine back in the boat, he told me the dampner was now the weakest link. Oh well, something has to be last on the list.

Good luck on your project.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Thats what we use to call our bravos ,and the pin is allready pulled .Kinda like the easy money guys we drag race with betting all the money , there are 2 guy that are up to 1000hp on there motors :eek: ,The higest I have been is 475hp nitrous on a 355ci :eek: last weekend one just pushed the cylinder out of a donivan block, ordered a new one for this weekend and is fixen the other.I call these guy easy money guys because they dont have jobs

On the Whipple 3.3 I thought the air intake was at the rear of the motor???I have not seen a picture of them or a break down on how there made anywhere :(

I prob need to do the AFM since Mark is going to weld the bung for it anyway.

Fountainclimber thanks and goodluck to you to

thanks

Rob

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

tomcat,

I think you need to stick to what you know for facts. Have you run 8 wide range air fuel meters with our 2.3 or 3.3 setup? How about with a centrifugal setup and stock intake? How about a carb style intake? I highly doubt you've done this. EGT's are not a direct represenetive of air fuel ratios, even then, our EGT's are typically within 100deg. F from high to low at any given RPM, far superior to almost all naturally aspirated motors and centrifugal SC'd motors that use stock intake manifolds.

Some facts for you:
1. Our 3.3L Stage 3 and 4 kits have an average of .3 variance from cylinder to cylinder at peak HP on a 500HP EFI engine. At idle, 750RPM, the average variance is .55. At 80 Kpa, 4500RPM, cylinders are .7 variance. At 120Kpa, 4500RPM, cylinders are .2 variance.
2. Injecting fuel through the compressor creates a major cooling effect. The fuel goes through a phase change, from liquid form to gas form which creates a refrigerent cooling effect, notice the ice on top of the SC's after long hard running.
3. Because the screw compressor is just that, a compressor, it compress's the air and fuel together and discharges at a 1.35:1 ratio. This in fact mixes the air and fuel and prepares it better for combustion, it also allows for very even distribution from cylinder to cylinder.
4. Whipple intercoolers are made of cupronickel and have copper air fins, 24fpi, louvered which has the potential to remove more BTU's effectively than aluminum only cores.
5. Just some more random info, my 528ci HEMI motors that I run in my boat, with our own intake had an average variance of .1! Thats with 2.3AX quad rotor EFI with 17lbs of boost, intercooled.

If you want to go ahead and do some research on distribution, I would recommend purchasing 8 Horiba air fuel meters, the most accurate at the ratio levels commonly run in marine application. We are the US aftermarket distributor, we can get them for you, just a touch under $7000 each.

To note as well, Mercury Racing no longer uses any supercharger but screw compressors. No centrifugals, no turbos, no roots, just screw compressors. The 1075SCI has dual 2.3L superchargers, same as our standard 500HP EFI kits. Ford also used the same 2.3 for the new Ford GT, it's also slated to be utilizied on the 06' Cobra and 08' Lightning. This is not because of cost, since the screw compressor is nearly twice as much as a centrifugal. Also to note, Whipple Superchargers are now being utilizied by Sterling Performance (carb and EFI), Paul Pfaff Racing Engines, Teague Custom Marine, GT Performance and soon to be a few more that you'll see in the summer.

And with regards to programming, our kits offer some of the best, most advanced computer calibrations available in the marine market. We do a tremendous amount of calibration work for OEM's, emission compatible cars and trucks tdhat are 1000 times harder than a marine engine, as well as some of top engine builders in the country. All systems now return the fuel to the filter after the fuel cooler. Returning to the tank is actually not USGC legal and therefore our kits cannot be offered that way.

The rear inlet will not cause any problem with airflow in the 388 Slingshot.

Mark @ Precision Marine does a wonderful job and I certainly recommend them for whatever job it may be. They have a full service facility with tremendous resources and knowledge in the industry.

Thanks,
Dustin

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Dustin,

Have you had any issues with the Nordic 35 flames getting water in the rear with large water? They have those two openings for air at the center of each engine at the platform and hatch. In the bay I have gotten water to enter and found it in the bilge when stooping. I am concerned that it might drown the engine. Any advice?

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Lister, sounds like a question for NORDIC.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Rob, I am speechless. I never saw this thread until today. I am not speechless to the fact of your obvious talent and skill regarding the internal engine components and condition of each, What I am impressed with is your skill set of time management. I have to take some lessons.

Internet, good porn sites, posting on OSO, work, wife, home, children?, cars, boats: A master at time mangement.

Good luck on your project. :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

oh , i thought this was a whore list :D sorry :p

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

i have a question about the cylinder heads that were on your motor?? what size valves came in them and did the bowl area look like it had been cut out with a counter-bore cutter ?? Was there any venturi left??

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

sutphen30: Thanks for the info on the plug check with the whipple.

Dustin: Damage to rear cylinders is what I was told. I speculated in my post that fuel distribution from the front entry might explain the observation. Then sutphen30 responded with his plug check info that showed good distribution and you posted your data on A/F ratios. Now I'm thinking that maybe the intake air just got too hot. Maybe the rear cylinders always run hot and are just the first to detonate when you get too close to the edge.

The point is that nobody really wants to become an expert in engine damage. They want a system with some built in safety margin. You don't need $56,000.00 worth of sensors to check for uniform fuel distribution if you use port injection. And you don't need to worry about intake air temps if you use a big intercooler. Copper fins, denser fins, evaporation of fuel in the compressor, all become unnecessary.

Tom

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

***"Let the Mud Slinging Now Begin!!!!!"***

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

The MEFI 3 port injection is batch fired - 4 at once. So, some of that charge must vaporize on the port surfaces resulting in uneven distribution. Does it matter-who cares! Dustin's kit (at least the one I have) retains the stock injectors and furnishes 2 aux. injectors in the throttle body when running under boost. Purging the aux. system upon installation is easy- just apply pressure to the hose that goes to the Whipple computer. Lung pressure is all it takes. My 502 MPI motor runs flawlessly after 2 seasons with the kit.

Regards,

Mark S.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Let me try again,

Here's a picture on my buddies 388 and how he did the hatch. He has 10-71 blowers.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

The heads came with the stock 2.25 and the 1.88 . They tell me they come with the Manley sever duty valves . I am replacing them all anyway , went to the 1.900 ex.

These heads have already had some porting done to them , not much.& not with a cutter.

old pick

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Thanks for the pm :D , he has some stout motors in there.


sutphen30 This boat had the old style Whipples on it once before . it has # 12 dumps on it already.

*****I am just worried about adding the pick ups for the innercooler and maybe adding the seastrainers for them :(

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

please explain the dynamics of this phenomenon. A phase change from liquid to gas is accomplished by either heating the liquid OR subjecting it to a pressure drop. It doesn't just "happen". I'm having trouble picturing the process which contributes to the cooling effect you've mentioned.

I can see that the liquid/air mix undergoes a compression as it exits the compressor, but I don't see anywhere that the pressure undergoes a rapid drop (which is required to exhibit the refrigerant-based phase change cooling effect you mention). If the charge underwent a substantial compression within the blower itself, and its excess heat was removed via conduction through the blower case, then it would make sense that a cooling effect could occur as the compressed gases exited the blower case into a low(er) pressure area within the intake manifold. I don't think this is the case, although I am open to being corrected.

Besides, if a screwcharger somehow "made" the charge cool (by the refrigerant cooling effect you mention) then why in blazes would anybody need an aftercooler with a Whipple??

Please elaborate on this cooling effect. It sounds very cool (no pun intended, well, okay maybe it is intended just a leetle).

I may need pictures or something to better understand...

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

The following remark is in response to post 107 for those that didn't understand where i was coming from.
LET THE FIGHT BEGIN!!!! :D :D :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Well said! :D

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

I did some more research on the oil pumps , Probably to much because most say there not a problem with the oil system on the bbc.And on my old Scarab [11pds]blower motor it had a moroso pump and never had a oil pressure or bearing prob. Here is what I found .

Melling came out with the new style pump in Oct 1996. on the big block Chevy they have 4 basic different ones.

The 10770 is a high volume pump , has steel gears where to old style where made of a powdered metal :( . the outside body is black manganese phosphate coated.uses a 3/4 press in style screen. and includes a HD drive shaft w/ steel sleeve. I figure this pump is close to the old style but with steel gears.

The 10777 required a screw in oil pick up. The gear shafts extend into the bottom cover for support.has a screw in plug that holds the relief valve spring, its coated also.it comes with a NEW style HD hex drive shaft, stronger I guess?

The 10778 is about a year old .people wanted the 10777 but with a press in oil pickup.Its the same as the 10777 except has a press in pick up.this pump was not even instock yet anywhere.

The 10778C this one they recommend for racing only because it has the anticavitation grooves cut in to the cover. They claim it will have LOW oil pressure below 1400 rpm. he said below 30psi.

I figure as long as I see atleast 10 at idle i am ok .Not much load there . Like Smokey said 10 psi for every 1000rpm . Look what the dry sump motors make :eek:


Melling [Mr Cal] said all these pumps come with the high pressure in them now . they flow test all of the make sure the bypass is at 70 psi and has 30 at idle.the body is supose to be the same thicknes ,so the standard 8 inch oil pan pick up will work.

Mr Cal said Moroso made them come out with the 10778C . He said Melling said it was not necessary .Moroso told them it was a selling point.. Melling bought out Dyna gear that was making the oil pumps for Moroso and putting the anticavitions grooves in them .
I have run the pumps with the anti grooves in them and have'nt had any oil pressure problems at idle.He said

The pictures are of a SBC but the shafts are done the same. Maybe this will give ya an idea on the new pumps.whether there needed or not?? :D

I think the shaft going thru the body will help ,look at my pick with the chatter in the upper body and the uneven wear on the cover.

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Cool thread

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

Strip, have us an update on engines yet?

Re: Hustler 500efi engine tear down & Build Up
 

I been sick for 2 weeks with the Flu :( Air compressor broke :( . I should start back up this week . Picking up the blocks Tue.I have most of the parts in . Backed ordered on cams and lifters.Crane :( .I am locking down the Price on the 3.3 Whipples with Mark at Precision Marine this week also.Polished???

Also I have a car show coming up Jan 8th .Putting 2 cars in at the same time will take up some more of my motor time.Its good excuse to sit around a car show bench racing and drinking BEER :D