Best way to get 600 hp?
 

I'd like everone's opinion on how I could most reliably get 600hp out of 454 mag carb motors, I do not want to not touch the short block, can I bolt on heads, cam, blower, carb(s) and acheive this? The hull is a 27 Daytona, twins, stock bravos. I want it to be reliable, idle well, and naturally I want to run them hard! Already have Dana exhaust. I also like everyone want to keep costs down. Eric

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Its not what you want to know... but I know someone who could build a 496stroker from that block and get 550-600hp. $7000.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

no way your gonna pick up 240 plus hp just by bolting on the top end.

what compression are you running? if you go with the blower, you will most likely have to change your pistons. or at least freshen up the bottom end. if your running low compression.


I inquired about getting 600 HP out of a 454 some time back. My mechanic's response was. it can be done but it wont be reliable. So I elected to go for a 502 with stroker to 540.

for a 454 to make 600hp, cost $$ and high compression at high rpms. on race fuel. unless you want to rebuild every 20 hours. I would think twice bout that.

no matter how you look at it, it will cost you at least 5,ooo per side, probably more. Then you may want to open up your drives and make sure they can handle the upgrade.

My advise, Pick up a pair of 540 long blocks and work from there. thats the most reliable option. 600 hp will be easy and reliable at 9:1 and 5300rpms on reg gas.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

A blower is the only effective way to do it. There's no replacement for displacement.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Sounds like you dont want to pull the motor.If ya do the blower you realy need to go thru the botton , make sure the deck is flat so ya want blow a head gasket.

You said you want it reliable and want to run it hard :eek: . be easy on the hard :D

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

The answer is easy. Just contact tomcat here on the board. His R-tech Supercooler/Vortech kit will deliver 675 reliable hp on your stock short blocks.

I was heavily involved in a project 25 Baja. We had a fresh 454 Magnum, basically stock except for good valves and a mild roller cam The boat went 60 mph. Bolted up an M1 Procharger with Toms Supercooler and pick up 20 mph.

We pulled the motor and took a trip to Nickerson Performance for a few days of dyno testing with Tom. In the end we saw 785 hp out of a 454 Magnum. (at 9 lbs boost) We toned it down to 6.5 lbs and made 675 hp reliably.

Look up the May '03 issue of Family & Performance Boating mag for a full story on this project.

This motor worked incredible for 120 hrs until a Comp Cam roller lifter failed and ruined the motor.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Hey Biggus,

what do they say the total cost for a project like that is? Its got to be close to 10k. Wouldnt you say?

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Yes Bruce, it's pretty close to that figure when it's done right. I think that centrifugal blowers have got bad press because many folks have cut corners/bad info during the install.

I'm convinced that the only guy out there who has the carburetion figured out for the "blow through" systems is Dean Nickerson. PERIOD. Dean has spent hundreds of hours on his own dyno developing the system. He makes his own metering blocks specifically for centrifugal blowers. Just call Dean for the carb and be done with it.

Also, the fuel system MUST be designed correctly with an Aeromotive A1000 electric fuel pump, 1/2" fuel lines with a return back to the tank and most importantly, a boost-referenced fuel pressure regulator. Fuel pressure MUST increase with boost because the carb is in a pressurized box.

If all the steps are followed, you can make 700 hp reliably on pump gas from a 454 Magnum. We've done it and it works.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

How's that for a Science project?

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

KYElimEagle,

It sounds like you have the 365hp/454mags---right? I agree with what some of the other guys are asking---how many hours on the engines? You will want to make sure the bottom end is up to the task, and in good condition before bolting on more power.

Getting a reliable 600hp out of a 454 with a supercharger doesn't seem too difficult these days. Actually, you might be able to use the same stock GM/Merc heads, cam, pistons/comp ratio in regards to bolting on a supercharger. I would at least have the heads bowl/pocket ported----this is especially true on the exhaust side as the stock GM head does NOT have very good flow from the factory exhaust ports. You are most likely going to at least need a B&M 250 blower to get a reliable 600hp out of a 454. I would also suggest some roller rocker arms and you will need some Holley carbs for this application. It sounds like you already have some good aftermarket free flowing exhaust manifolds to enhance your power goal.

"rmbuilder" would be another good source of info. I'm sure he could help you much more than I could with your questions.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

That engine is a good candidate for supercharging. It has a lot of good parts and 8.8 to 1 compression. 600 is possible with a 250 blower and a single 1050 carb. I would freshen the engine and add good head gaskets and roller rockers.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

I run a Merc 420 with a B&M 174 blower, single 800 Holley, Gill exhaust, 4.5# boost, and routinely make ~535hp. So getting 600hp from your mags shouldn't be that difficult, provided your long blocks don't have too much time on them. Over 300hrs, probably should have a valve job at the very least. I agree with KAAMA, a B&M 250, a good Nickerson blower carb, 6# of boost, and you should be close. If you do a valve job, then have someone like JimV do the heads and have him install bigger, 2.25" severe duty intakes, and inconel exhaust. It will make it easier to make power and live longer.
Do it right the first time, or don't go. Otherwise you'll get to do it twice for half the fun and four times the money. :eek:

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Someone else may pipe in with the details, but there is a Crownline 225 bowrider with a Whippled 454 MAG that dyno'd at just under 800HP. However, I don't think the inside's are stock, neither are the heads.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

I have 2 sets of Procharger M3s(12 rib) with 504 intercooler,polished 50hrs . Its for 454
MPI but I bought the carb boxes if you want to go that route. Some brackets for alt and steering pump will need to be bought or made but they are simple, I made mine but used them on my NA motor. $5300 for MPI setup,$6300 with carb boxes included. Go to procharger.com to see typical results on diff boats. I thought I had these sold last time there was a post like this. I'm tempted to keep for a future boat but got mine to 80 without and don't really need more on my current boat.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

If you only want 600 HP then a B&M 250 is enough blower. I would use an superchiller underneath it just for safety reasons (less chance of detonation). There is used equpiment out there but you can also buy new from the Blower Shop.

If you think there is a chance that 600 HP will not satisfy :rolleyes: then go to a centrifugal blower system. A used procharger M-1 system will deliver 650 HP @ 7 psi on your engines. cooltoys M-3 will do better than that. Our system will deliver 740 HP @ 9 psi. We can get away with the extra boost because the supercooler works so well.

These numbers are all for stock 454 Mag. Reliability comes from upgrades to fuel system, cooling system, oil system, exhaust valve material etc. Listen to these guys about doing it right the first time. Nickerson carbs work well. Good luck!

Biggus: wicked looking oil system, what issue is that article in? Say hi to Paul for me. New system dyno test at Tyler Crockett's before Christmas.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Thanks everyone for the replies, the motors are mags they run strong, tested compression on just one of the motors and was happy with the results. The only thing that I am concerned about the centrifuagals is the space available to mount the compressor on the port motor, they may not fit. But if I go with a roots then need new engine hatch. With the roots, how should I expect idle to be? I know it would be good with the centrifugal. Tomcat, can you tell me more about your system, are you selling a complete kit ...or just a better intercooler system. Cooltoys, is the setup the SC or not you are close as I am in Bowling Green. CDScarab I'll heed the advice of doing it right. Sounds like I really need headwork to do it right with 328 hours. If I need to pull the heads, how much would it cost for aluminum heads, would it be worth it? If I did the heads, it would make sense to go the extra for cam and hydraulic roller lifters? Lastly, about how much should I expect to pay for Nickerson's carbs?
Thanks for the replies fellow adrenaline junkies

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Eric, my 420 has more cam than your mags and it idles better than my 330 did, probably the best running motor I've ever owned. Unless you are thinking more HP, then your stock cams would be the way to go, good idle, already broken in, and paid for. Roller cams are great except for the cost to buy, the cost to replace lifters every 2-400 hrs.*, and the cost to repair/replace a motor when a lifter dies. *If you run them HARD, they will die, just depends on how much you like doing engine work verses driving your boat.
The centrifugal blower set ups are cool, they fit under the hatch. But myself, I like the clean appearence the roots blowers have, and yes, they'll probably interfere with the hatch. But for me theres nothing quite like the looks you get when you raise the hatch to see that shiny blower sitting on top of the motor.
For 600hp you don't need aluminum heads, they'd be nice, and they'd make 600hp real easy on cheaper gas, but their what,~ $2200 a set. Intercoolers would be a better choice. Also, your bravos will only stand so much grief, so be sure to get some drive showers on them.
I haven't priced Nickerson carbs lately, but you can call him for prices. Also, I've read that their having great success with the new Sea Demon carbs. One of their tech guys is usually on this site. Chuck

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Yes,M3 superchargers included. So you are about 90 min away. Small world.Do you ever go to KY lake?

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

a low boost blower motor will idle better than the same motor minus the blower, as long as the timing advance is changed to something the blower motor likes.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

with 320 hrs you should freshen the motors before supercharging. be sure to change the exhaust valves to inconel.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Who does everyone recommend for head work? Right here in Corvette city we have a company known as total engine airflow, that was just bought by Trick Flow, what would I need to tell them to do? I know inconnel exhaust valves are a given and severe duty valves, roller rockers, valve seats reground, Kaama recommended Bowl and pocket porting, is this a job I need a marine guy to do? Or can I let a good local builder do it? Also, right here in my town is the HQ of Holley, so I might get the friend of a friend buy some parts(B&M) at employee cost. What's everyone think would be less maintainence roots with intercooler or centrifugal intercooled? Thanks, Eric

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

KYE,

While focusing on your goal of a reliable 600hp 454cid marine engine, I agree with cdscarab that you do NOT need aluminum heads to achieve this. I am trying to give you some advice that will keep your project as inexpensive as possible while still achieving your power goal.

You can run a hydraulic roller cam/lifters if you like, but I doubt it is necessary. However, they will make more power, and are pretty reliable these days. They ARE pricey though! But you can still retain the stock flat tappet cams/lifters you have now, acheive your power goals, and save $$$ at the same time.

The GM heads you have now will work---they will work even without going to a larger intake valve. However, you should have them checked out, comp valve job, install stainless steel valves and inconnels on the exhaust side. I would include a bowl/pocket port although you may not even really need it, but it's a nice little inexpensive power increase. If anything, the port that needs the most attention on a stock GM head is the exhaust port side---especially for a supercharger application. "JimV" knows these heads well, and will do a good job if you like (616) 735-0800----or a local competent speed shop should be able to BOWL/POCKET PORT the heads while paying attention to the short side radius's.

The roots style B&M 250 superhcarger with 4-5lbs of boost is adequate to get the job done for a reliable 600hp on a 454cid marine engine. You will have to do some homework, but the B&M 250 will only sit about as high as your stock engines do now---which is nice. I'm not sure what to say about the inner-cooler issue. Up here in Michigan, I know of several guys (one with a 35' HEAVY Cigarette with B&M 250's) who run roots style super chargers in their boats on Lake Michigan WITHOUT the use of an inner-cooler (superchiller) without any problems I know of. But it's cooler here in Michigan during the summers and the water isn't as warm in the Great Lakes as some of the smaller inland lakes ---especially in the south where you live. Superchargers eventually become "heat soaked" depending on how long you run them, and detonation can set in. Not knowing all about the Cig's engine details (heads, lbs of boost, etc) but the guy with the 35' Cig has 454cid engines with the B&M 250 superchargers and his engines dyno'd at about 665hp or so. I remember JimV showing me the dyno sheet of one particular stock 454cid engine (hyd flat tappet cam) with a B&M 250 supercharger, a single 850cfm carb that made about 623hp with about 5-6lbs of boost on Tom Earhart's dyno. This was back in the early to mid 1990's!!! I don't think even JimV ran an inner-cooler on his supercharged engine in his boat. I don't know of all the particulars of this engine, but you can call JimV and ask him---he can tell you of several different options.

If you're interested, I know of a couple of used B&M 250 blowers that need rebuilding at my engine builder's shop that may be for sale for a extremely reasonable price because of their condition, but you'd have to call and enquire about them. Crazyhorse even knows of them. My engine builder's shop is called "WESCO" ask for Dave. (616) 662-2250.

I am NOT an engine expert, therefore my advice is not set in stone. I can only tell you of what I have seen, and what I have experienced over the years of offshore performance boating. I hope your project goes well for you. Have fun.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

I think it was interesting that no one mentioned Whipple, does anyone have experience with the 454 mag and a Whipple? This would probably allow me to run an intercooler and a stock hatch! Thanks Kaama those used 250's may be the ticket as I could have one of my patients run it through the factory here. Eric

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

I need opinions on a second direction I am considering. Like I said originally, I want to be able to run the motors hard. From the responses, it seems as if I will not be able to run these motors hard with just adding boost. I'm thinking of building a set of new motors that I could keep as I trade boats and put the stockers on the shelf until I sell the hull.
If I do this, I would like to build a 700 hp motor that I could run. Please give me your recipe for this. I can't go real exotic, but I would want to do it right, and I need the motors to be the same size in width as the 454 mags.
Would you bore a 502 to 540 or just start with a merlin block, what kind of crank , pistons, heads,valve train, would you use? I don't want to write a check, I want to build them as much as possible myself. I have always wanted to do this and now seems to be a good time!
Thanks, Eric

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Do search of "540" on this forum section, and you'll get quite a bit of info to chew on too.........

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Most 540s , i've seen are making + - 650 hp at 5500 / 5600. If you want reliable 700 hp at low comp and low rpm., start off with a tall deck and insrease your cubes, like 572 or 598. 700hp will be easy at 5400 / 5500 with mild head work

check out this thread, which was fairly impressive
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=89520

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Eric, at this point, I think the real question is, what are you going to do for better drives? With the tech. thats availalble now, making 700 or even 850 horse from a big block is pretty easy if you use a good builder. The big trick will be making your drives last at those power levels. Not to be a kill joy, but before installing the 525 in my scarab, I had the B1 looked at and I had all but killed it with a 33o/454. This in about 500 hrs., the last half of which it was cooled by a drive shower. So I had it rebuilt with HD parts, hopefully for a few years of trouble free operation. The point is, alot of guys were popping XRs with Mercs 575, much less standard B1s with 700 horse. Before you go buying into BIG power, you should probably check with these guys to see what will stand up to the power your planning, and the bigger power that we all know you'll eventually be moving up to. :D :D :D I knew you couldn't resist the move up, no one can! :rolleyes: Chuck

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Chuck, I think your point is well taken, I know that I must upgrade the internals of the drives. I twisted a spline in my 502 mag with PC. Generally I am pretty easy on equipment, so I'll try just upgrading my existing drives. I think I'm going to try to find some 502's and make 540's with 8:1 compression and add blower's, intercoolers, low boost 4-5lbs, aluminum heads. If I can't find a good deal on used I will start with Merlin III. Eric

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

I Have These For Sale

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Brian, Tell me about there condition. How much? Are you going bigger?

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

they are like new about 50 hrs. $6000.00 plus shipping.bought them as winter project but I am closing on new house this week and things may get tight this winter with a major house and business move at the same time. I had them sold to a member on oso but he has been stalling the sale for 3 weeks and am no longer interested in dealing with him.
They are B&M 250's, holley 600 cfm with 4 corner idle set up for the blowers they come with 5 and 8 lbs pulleys, fuel lines, carb linkage, flame arrestor, belts and stainless marine t stat housings. Brian

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Just an update, I have come full circle back to massaging my 454 mags. Found some great cond. used Weiand 177's for 1300. Gonna get Tyler Crockett put together a package of new cam, roller hyd. lifters. I can get him to redo the heads for 1300 with all the good stuff or buy CNC ported to his spec heads for 2800. Seems to me I may want to go with the Brodix heads. Any opinions. By the way going to go with 5lbs boost, pump gas. What does everyone think about the heads and this blower.

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

Brian,
Question..
What enhancements do the stainless marine t stat housings do?
mike

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

keeps hoses away from moving parts

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

So, what power level are you looking for now? I would think the 177s should get you to 600hp if the components are right. More than that and coolers maybe necessary to soak up the heat from spinning the blowers faster. If you have aspirations for 700hp, then the 250s or 6-71s would be better in the long run. The Brodies are alot better than stock and will help with both the heat problem and future HP needs. As you already know, speed costs money , no point in doing it twice.
OT, I read in the Elim. section that you ski a Maja longboard, whats your opinion of it, worth the bucks? Also, whats its like to ski behind a cat? Been wanting to move up to one, but my daughter theatens to disown me if she can't ski behind it. Chuck

Re: Best way to get 600 hp?
 

177's are small and build heat to make the power .

Get everything in Writing from anyone helping you ......... :rolleyes: