A question for all
 

In another thread, a statement was made about "Hot ECM's",
Now knowing the sport isnt the latest sensation sweeping the nation, and the fact that the prize money while it helps, surely doesnt cover the expense! Add the fact that there arent that many boats entering the arena. WHY?? would someone CHEAT??? I personally dont think, It is happening. I believe that a higher standard of integrity is being displayed by all the racer's. How would a cheater prosper in a sport that costs a good chuck of change to begin with.

And when its all said and done, the competition all leaves???
and you have no one to race but yourself???

This isnt directed at any team or boat, just a plain simple question.

Pete its really not that hard to understand...most cheat because the know they wont get caught..ECM's are the worst to tech on ANY engine..A good electronics guy can outwit any inspector..why do think NASCAR doesnt use them or fuel injection...it isnt cost..Inpection has always been a trouble spot..you have to keep things simple..What inspector can download any ECM into their laptop at the crane??? If you tighten the TECH it would solve most of your question. cheating happens in ALL motorsports at all levels including NASCAR...Work on inspections and the problem will go away..its a orginzational problem...

It helps you sell Fou......boats :rolleyes:

Tony,
I understand that they wont get caught part of it, the real question is why, does it make them feel better??

Pete,

when you get the 100% correct answer to that question, you would have figured out the cure for cancer and we will be racing as one!:p

Trent

It's all about ego to run at the front

Ecu
 

I would think ecu's would be pretty easy to tech and control. I assume you are refering to the factory power classes with the 525. Cant' tech provide everyone with a new ecu before the race? Or maybe there can be a bounty on a contenders ECU, such as buying the winners ecu after the race in return they get the ecu from whomever is buying there ecu.
Thanks, Cam-shaft

I think that Rum Runner captured the "why's", all I know is there is nothing more gratifying that beating someone who is cheating.

Years ago, after winning a midget race, the 2nd and 3rd place cars protested my engine. Four hours later after the engine was completely torn down it was deemed legal and well under acceptable tolerances.

When they were walking away my girlfriend at the time, heard one of them state, "he must be cheating, hell were cheating and his is beating us"

Hard work will beat cheating every time. If you spend the same amount of effort improving your team as you do cheating so you do not get caught, you would get that little bit extra it takes to be a champion and you would not have to look over your shoulder.

Even in the Bat Boat we were always accused of cheating. No one could believe that we would beat them the way we did within P4 speeds (old P4 79.9) and beat them by so much, they did not understand that we could turn our boat at WOT and much tighter, thus every corner we would put 100-200 yards on them.

While the race would be a blowout, their boats probably had faster straightaway speeds.

Thus instead of spending one minute about what others are doing, stick to your program, believe in yourself and do what you can to make your boat/car, etc run it's best. If you do that, evenetually you will even the playing field and win. You will know you earned it and taking that checkered flag home will be much sweeter.

Rick

We had lots of opporrtunites to cheat - never did. When we won races we felt good about it.

The interesting thing is there is almost this twisted kind of admiration for ceaters - especially those which find a way to beat the system, where people kind of find it intreguing instead of condemming them.

Almost like they are something special.

Gregg Reichman

The grey area is probably cheating if explored ..rules are all about interpretation...Ask Chad , crew chief of lowes race team about grey areas.. Again Pete why not keep it simple..what other high end motorsort has fuel injection,boost controllers,multiple coils, propietorty computers,and more wiring on a motor than your house..look at these motors of successful motorsports they keep it simple.. Alot of cheating is done for the edge,but alot of racers believe working the grey areas is racing..there are super sharp individuals out there to catch 99% ..most orgs wont find these guys again orgizinational problem....


Doug need a bunch of parts for key west...ive been trying to call u ...

bidpro you have a great point...

cam-shaft...simple data loggers and strict fuel testing will eliminate most

I spent the whole last season doing research and a lot of testing to dial my boat in perfect, when I should of spent more time and technology coming up with ways to cheat I think it would of been more profitable and marketable to more racers that want to win.

:party-smiley-048:

Tyler,
When u gonna answer my e mail about 496?
Rich

Rich I did email you, I still have the original email I will resend it. Please pm me your phone number I do not have it. Thanks

THERE IS A SIMPLE SULUTION TO THIS PROBLEM....

THE RULE SHOULD BE:

IF YOU ARE CAUGHT CHEATING WEATHER IN THE GRAY AREA OR NOT...
THE RACERS AND THE BOAT IS BANNED FOR RACING FOR 2 YEARS FROM THE TIME OF OFFENSE...

YOU WILL FIND OUT THE TEAMS THAT DON'T CHEAT WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS RULE AND THE TEAMS THAT LIKE TO RACE IN THE GRAY AREA WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT...

This way the owner is stuck with a boat he can't sell it to be raced and the racers are done...
When you talk about finding things in the gray area....all that comes down to is the team that has the most money can go out and pay to have the advantage...and it dose nothing good for the sport....

I think that's why Factory racing was so big and compeditive.....the boats had a hymoligation rule...teams were not able to cut decks down and change there design ever 6 months..and to not having there drive configuration being changed buy allowing the drive to be surfaced a little...

Other then putting on hood scoops to get the approprate air to a engine to keep it cool and changes for safety reasons that all boats can make....there should be no changes to be made to any boat....if the big money teams like that kind of stuff...more power to them...let them do what they want...
But for the smaller teams let it come down to the racers....
testing is good...but it should be for testing legal props changing X's and moving weight around...

Doug,

I'm saying...in the rules it needs to say just that, nothing other then scoops and any changes that the inspecters approve to all teams for safety...

I'm not saying there was not cheating in F1 and F2...but alot of teams also got caught cheating to...if they were banned along with there boats for 2 years...there would have been less then thre already was...

There needs to be no gray area....out of the box, no modification at all,

Thats one of the reasons SLV is so competitive...all running the same engines same gear ratio and legal props along with the same 3 basic hulls....

coming from a different form of racing... I can say development is BASED on finding the must unfair fair advantage if that makes sense. i built a race vehicle once, not by looking at the off the shelf technology available, or what everybody in my class was doing, but by examining the rule book as closely as possible and exploiting every rule to my advantage while staying within the rules. the end result worked so good I one the first race by 1 and a half laps (5 30 mile laps) with less then 5 hours testing time, after winning like that the next 5 or 6 races I basically killed the class. I won every race that year, but by the end of the year..there was noone left for me to race. from this I learned there are 2 aspects to every technical race rule.. the physical limitation of the rule and the spirit of the rule (to make the racing fair and competitive)..while "bending the envelope" of the rule to the point just before it breaks..technology can increase or competition can decrease..its a double edged sword..while its rewarding to test tune and perfect the slightest advantage against your opponent, developing a 20% "legal" advantage, kills the sport and in hindsight, how much fun is it to race or how rewarding to win when you KNOW the next guydoesnt have a prayer?? just some points to ponder..

It's clear to me that if you cheat you are a piece of chit. If you are caught you should be gone for at least 2 years to life. You are not good for the sport or worthy of racing with those of us that don't cheat. If your ecm is hot, if your prop is "fixed" or your GPS "didn't work" go to the rule book and find the penalty, that's it. The rules are the rules. Period.

If it is in the grey area, shame on the organization and make a decision based on common sense, intent and have the entire class vote on the penalty. Then change the rule.

On the fuel in SC...thats there problem....in factory class racing it was simple....you used the fuel provided with no aditives...or from the gas station...if there was additives found you were disquilified...

Again...its simple..looking for the gray area is nothing more then cheating....and I agree its up to the Organization to make it very clear to everyone...

If the rules say for example in spec class racing is only scoops and approved saftey changes that all boats can make.... and only race fuel that is provided can be used...there is no gray area...

any changes may be made with all teams approval and low cost to acheive changes can be added....but at least all teams would no of any changes if they wish to make them and if they agree on them and the info is given to any new team that joins that class

On the GPS rule....that should be looked at....we have sent ours back after the first race when it didn't read last year...that had problems...and we had nothing to do with it...it was in a race that we did not even hit 87 mph in a 95 mph class...is that cheating...I would think not...but its a littler harder in GPS racing...I thing its easy in spec racing...the rules should be the rules and leave no gray area....

I agree on the appeal....and let them have a say...but if the rules are set and say these are the only two changes that can be made period...it can only fall back on the scoop, prop or weight of boat....

If you can't beat someone without finding a gray area while the teams that are beating you racing by the rules....maybe you should work on your own skills instead of being a losser....

I see your point...but thats why you fuel should be bought at the race site and sealed...

At the same time...if you are buying fuel in a differant state when your compeditors will be buying there's in a state which will give you a better performance...yes you are knowing your cheating...If you live in say Mich and the race is in FL and a team can only fuel at a gas station or fuel provided at the site and you will have a advantage....yes that is cheating....that is one of those gray area's...but if you are doing something knowing you will have the advantage and is going against the rules....and if teams would know they will be suspended for years....that little advantage would probably not be worth the risk...

Also the ECM issue could be handled....If everyone is running Merc 525's...merc could donate all ECM's for each race..and draw for them...at the end of the race the ECM's are collected by Merc during inspection and redone at every even...the owners of the teams would keep there own and not be used for racing....

are you trying to get this thread removed ??

They always got the Prop Calcalation to fall back on and test drive the boat right after the race. :hitfan:

That is where you want to be, but if it is clearly sand bagging then the organization should move that boat up.

Doug....I don't know exactly what differance and how much more performance say 89 octane in Mich gives you other then 89 octane in Fl is or vice versa in a 525...
But if there is a differance and it can be shown that one team would have a advatage over another becasue of this...
Then the fuel would have to be used from the race fuel truck...its that simple...just because you get a sponsor that wants to give you fuel for you boat and it gives you advantage....yes its cheating...use the sponsorship to fill up your support trucks.....
It just that simple....

and on the ECM's it is a start but again....there will always be someone who will try to cheat...and there are enough people out there that can get it done....so thats why you make it if your caught....your done for 2 years or even for good...the boat and the racers can never race in that Org.

On the chipping down on engines to make it fit into a speed...yes that is allowed...but at the same time if the Org deems it that a boat should be move up..then they will do that...

Remember...at any time a inspector can have a team pull there engine after a race and have it sent to Merc for example to have it torn down....if someone is willing to take that chance and the rule was your gone from racing if your cheating....a lot of whats going on will go away....

That is up to the inspector...if a boat is not capible of running the speed at WOT but is faster then the next class down....and they chip it down...then that has been done this year...

A good example of that has been 3 boats in our class have done that this year...Wanted and us are the only boats in Class 3 with 525's...and we have the least HP....and while some boats are capible of exceeding the 95 mph speed..they are chiped down to run 95....and we have had some of the closest racing all year....with all of us being in the lead at one time or another....

In class 1 you have a vee and a cat that went at it all year...one winning one race and the other winning the next.....

Things will never be perfect in either spec or braket racing.....but it can always be tweeked to make it better....and banning cheaters for a long time or for good...would be a great start to getting rid of some bad apple's or a least changing there ways...

If a boat is capable of running in P2 at 105 mph....there would be no reason for it to be even considered to run in P-4 at 85 mph....and I have seen boats that are close to hitting the 105 mark in P2...but moved to P3 because they just were not able to compete in P2...and tuned down to run 95....


As far as the fuel is concerend....if there is really a differance....that would be a simple fix...you can test with whatever fuel you want...but it would be pumped out and then the race fuel can be pumped and then sealed by the inspecters...and that would put a end to the fuel problem...if there is a unfair advantage....but today, how many spec class's are left....other then SVL its all the big boys...and I have never heard a SVL light team complainning about someone cheating with fuel....

In the 525's Merc dynos the engines and then seals them....some are always going to put out a little more HP then others......

No one here is saying that everything would be perfect....
but if your caught...you should be gone....that in itself would deture a lot of cheating....but it shows you....someone could go and pay a guy like you say 20k to 50k to find ways to get around inspections and give there team a advantage....and the best cure for that is ....go ahead and try it...and if your caught...by, by......

That is how I have my boat set up it is geared, Rev limited, and Proped for 69.9 MPH. I Built the engine and have the camshaft ground to work in the RPM band that the engine is rev limited too. I can not run in Class 6 then come in and change my prop then go out and run Class 3 or 4. Even if I wanted to run in Class 5 it is only 5 MPH faster I would have to put a bigger prop on then I would lose accelleration and my motor is already at max RPM. If your motor makes peak power at 6200 RPM and you can run 83 MPH you are not fast enough for Class 4 so you run Class 5 at 75 MPH. Now you run a smaller prop and you can only turn 5600 or 5700 RPM you are not using the full range of the engine.

Sand bagging is when you run in a slower class then go back out in the next race and run in a faster class. :D

We will be by to see you at the PRI show.

to make this long post short.. sandbagging..racing is competition, whether you win or loose when racing you face a challange head on with the best you have. it builds confidence, self esteem, and pride in a battle well fought.. sandbagging is not competition, you loose self respect and the respect of your peers.


Im seeing a key thing not mentioned here..theres more than hp/chipping to racing. what about talent skill and resources??? your racing in a tiered system from slow boats to fast boats with skills talents and resources corresponding. unfortunatly we really cant do what a lot of other types of racing do..i.e: skill levels, start as a beginner, winn 3 trophies you become an novice, then an amat. etc. thus the racing gets more challanging the better you get. all we have is basically boat speed classes. now everyone is saying we need to get more new people in to the sport, speed classes are good..you dont want someone with a ton of money and no skill trying to race a turbine cat against gieco..somebody is going to die. so he starts racing a slower safer boat. doing this with the expectation that maybe next season he will be a better racer, with better resources and can move up to the next class. so next year he gets bigger motors moves up and gets smoked hardcore..should he be able to chip the new motors down and go back to the slower class to become a better driver/throttleman so he can be competitive in the next class (not to mention safer) ABSOLUTELY! now about sandbagging..if your skills resources and equipment have evolved tothe point where you can win 1st or second in your class consistantly, year after year, your not racing..your going on an orginized high speed boatride in a circle. if your racing in a class where you know (barring something breaking) your going to win thats sandbagging. if the ne patriots were to play a game against your local high school football team, thats not competition, its exhibition..we know whos going to win. if you take the same class in college 27 times, of course your going to get an A..so basically to describe sand bagging..if its time for you to move up the ladder to meet a new challange and you dont, but instead choose to be a highschool senior bullying 6th graders for there lunch money, thats sandbagging. as I mentioned in an earlier reply, the bike I built to the extent of the class rules killed the class, so I moved up..to open/expert..meaning I didnt care how fast your bike was, or how good you were...I wanted the challange..bring it!