Single engine limit/length limit for P5?
 

Does anyone agree that either a length limit, or a single engine limit, should be implemented in P5?
As little as last year boats such as Carrot Top, 22', and Gigi,24' could run in the P5 "entry level" class and have fun. Now you have 38 Cigarettes and 38 Chris Craft Scorpions with twin engines running in this class. This almost abolishes "entry level", and has forced the smaller boats to sit out races.
If there was a single engine limit, or a length limit, maybe more boats would show up at races. For argument sake, If P5 was limited to 26' boats, the racing would be more competitive. A 24 or 28 Pantera cannot keep up with a 38 Cigarettte in anything except the flatest of water. In order to bring better racing and competition, P class needs more struture.
Do you agree?/Disagree?:confused:
BOB G.

the P classes are set up to appeal to the broadest number of entry level racers. if it was limited, then it would defeat the purpose of creating a class that appeals to a broad range of people.

Bob G.

This topic has been discussed over the last two years several
times. I do agree that there needs to be better control of entries in the P classes. I have heard P class racers state that they
would never get caught breaking out of their bracket because
they held there speed below the max. Well if you're "holding" your
speed below the max, you're probably capable of exceeding your
bracket. Also there have been occasions when P class boats
were advertised for sale or listed on a website and the top speed
stated was higher than allowed for the class. Different power?
Maybe.
Two things I'm thankful for:
1. I didn't spend the money for a 38' P5 boat. (60-69 mph)
2. Win or lose its always fun.

How about if you win in your class you have to move up to the next class?That way you can taste the victory and move up where you belong.
Randy

RumRunner,

When the rules for P Class were originally written, speed was to be determined under best conditions. Light load, full throttle,
good water conditions, etc.
If you had a boat capable of 79 mph and entered P5 (60-69 mph) because you were uncomfortable going 79, that's not fair to the guy's who run P5 legally. The GPS won't work because it would
only tell how fast the boat went in the race, not how fast it actually is.
Too many people think the criteria is how fast you go in a race when the important thing is your potential top speed.
The APBA will ask questions about your power, your drive
ratio, propeller, boat size and plug that into a formula to get approximate speed.
Mike Carter 'FEVER MIKE' worked on the developement of the rules for the APBA and frequently posts on this board. Maybe he'll
chime in.
Also if you have a top speed of 79 mph and enter P5 you would probably never break 69 mph in most water conditions, but you would have an advantage over legal P5 boats
That's it, i'm done. I hope Mike Carter chimes in.

raynman

If one looks back at offshore history, there are many racers who started out in the smallest class-Art Lilly, Bob Iodoni, Gene Whipp, and Brioschi driver Jay M. If there isnt an "entry level" class, where will future racers come from? We will have people with money (Jason P.) jumping into the biggest classes with little or no experience. Remember what happened to Jason on his first race? Lucky no one was killed.
There needs to be an "entry level" class. If P5 continues the way it is going,(38' Cigarettes and 38' Scorpions) even a 28' boat will be obsolete! The powers that be need to recognize this, and make some simple adjustments.
I'm sure there are many smaller performance boaters who would like to give racing a chance, however, a 24' boat cannot compete with a 38 Cigarette, therefore, they sit out.
A single engine/or length limit would solve this, and bring back some of the boats now sitting on trailers.
BOB G.

well I'm no racer but would love to try it someday...I was at GLSCS race this year in GrandHaven and took note of the P5 class boats at this event and with the conditions we had 1-3 foot sea's the smaller boats kicked a$$...I thought that in most conditions the smaller boats had the advantage but then again I'm no racer...if I was going to race P-5 I would build the biggest single engine deep V that would run just under the max speed....my .02

p class is to get your feet wet...let hope not:rolleyes:

they do/can put sealed GPS units in p boats...

explain this....at the cape code race we saw F-1 boats passing 100mph big p boats in some nasty ****...

my .02....poker run the boat or build/buy a race boat.

dyno....you gota turn in a race...everything is a trade off:(

one more thing...racing is racing!!!...a TRUE racer will find a way to make WHATEVER go fast!

As one of the members of the team running the 39 Scorpion that is referred to in this post, I feel compelled to respond.

You hit the nail on the head with your comment concerning that "the smaller boats will not be able to keep up with 38 Cigarettes and 38 Scorpions in anything but the flattest water". Earlier this year when we set out to race, we looked for a larger boat, knowing full well that racing in Lake Erie was bound to be rough. But guess what .... If you look at the results of the GLSCS and also the Cleveland Pro Race, there's a 27 Magnum that wins with some regularity. So yes, anyone can compete with us. With the current short-course format that is being run, it's more a matter of skill at the start and in the turns than of boat size.
And while we may have twin engines, please don't forget that we are pushing 11,500 lbs of boat compared to a lot less for others.
I'll grant you that we probably have a lot nicer ride than anybody else during the race, but that's why we started with a bigger and heavier boat.

Enforce the rules that have been established for all of the Performance Classes. We don't need to continue to divvy up the classes and create more confusion.

I hope someday to be able to meet you and race with you. This year was a real disappointment with all of the mechanical problems, but there's always 2003.

P5NAV,
The only issue with your boat is will it go faster than 69 mph
with the crew aboard, racing props, a reasonable amount of
gas, and decent water conditions? If it exceeds 69 mph it is not a P5 boat. This has nothing to do with speed during a race, lap speeds, etc. Just flat out top speed.

Audicity,
Putting a GPS in a boat may only prove that the speed for the bracket wasn't exceeded during the race. Not that the boat may be capable of higher speeds.

P is just about get'n started...hell sometimes people race up a class because no ones in it....say like p2.

top speed in what water conditions??

well if everyone averaged 69mph it would still be a close race...even if one was a 200hp bass boat and the other a 3000hp 50 magnum...right???

ps...one more thing... f-2 boats can go well into the 90's...but do they in a race??? race speeds and what a boats top speed are 2 very different #'s...

Our boat is not capable of exceeding the 69 MPH top speed limit for this class as it is configured. It's 20 years old, no "steps" in the hull, running old TRS drives. Newer 38 foot stepped hulls will be quite faster than it is. I may add that we were placed in this class by APBA when the boat was registered and assigned its' numbers.

Which is part of the reason I disagree with "banning" the boat from P5 as was proposed in the first post of this thread. Our boat can be considered as an "entry-level" boat that the average person could easily pick-up on the open market and go racing.

And like it has been stated earlier, isn't this supposed to be fun, too?

you hit right on RR...for the fun of it!!...seat time!!...race your race...not the boat next to ya....that can really get ya into trouble with out that seat time.

ps...i think the best way to start out is in a One Design Boat...that is how i started Dre' driving a race boat...but that's of the subject now isn't it:eek:

p class is for the fun of it. run what you brung class. too many limitations will LIMIT the number of people, not help increase it.

From the APBA Offshore 2002 Rules:
p. 75 Sect V.A. (partial quote)
"APBA Offshore inspectors will use a mathematical formula to determine a boat's top speed based on perfect water conditions."
p. 76 Section D. COMPETITION REQUIREMENTS-
1.Required Information-
a. Each engine horsepower
b. Drive manufacturer and model
c. Drive gear ratio
d. Top engine rpm at full throttle drive trimmed out
e. Propeller you will race with pitch and diameter
f. Boats ultimate top speed in perfect water conditions

3. Competition Speed Verification
a. Radar
b. Sealed GPS
c. Actual post race verification by APBA inspector

Please remember that this was taken from the rule book. Don't ask me when I've ever seen "perfect water conditions" or what they are. But there has to be limits and I think the rules are pretty specific. Notice there are no limits on boat size or horsepower. And per the rules P class is not only an entry level.
Quoting again p.76 " The Outlaw Performance Classes shall serve as a place where racers can begin their racing career, work on racing skills, or a place where a boat can race that does not fit into any other class that APBA Offshore currently offers." Do to my very limited typing skills I have not attempted to include everything about P class just a few highlights.

P5NAV,

If we get to the GLOPRA series next year I'll look you up.

raynman

I hope see both the APBA and SBI keep their current "P" class rules. I plan to make my debut in P5 this coming season in a new Pantera and bump up to P4 the following year. (It should be a little more fun racing, then watching from a Medical Boat)

Yeah it's kinda of a bummer to have such big boats in the smaller classes, I have a friend that's forced to race his 24 Skater against 38' Fountains in P2. Even with that in mind, I still think the current rules are fair and promote greater participation by weekend warriors and people who want to have a competitive boat that the family can still enjoy when not racing.


PS I'm still a Firefighter / Paramedic first, and in the interest of my fellow racers and good sportsmanship, If ya crash in front of me, I'll still rescue ya... Be safe and God Bless...

All P classes are enforced by periodic timing on various points of the race course. Insuring that no one exceeds their class limit.

NO MORE NEW CLASSES!!!

Why not limit to P1-P3 and all the boats fit in 1 of 3 classes?More boats in each class means more fun.Plus you could get rid of 3 classes.P5 is the best to watch because there our more boat in class.
Randy

Randy,
I would go along with your suggestion, three P classes would be enough! You could change it to 1)Single engine V, 2)twin engine V, 3)cats&anything else. By doing this, you dont eliminate anyone and you create more competition with more boats!
I think you should run for Northeast Commissioner!

Mike,
Carrot Top would stand a better chance against a 29' Fountain as opposed to a 38' Cigarette-do you agree?