SBI, APBA and OPA

Thay all should have the same rules when it comes to P-class boats.

If they don`t ,then how can we all race`s in Key West ????

Mike

GOOD POINT!!! Hauling Trash

Very Good Point Hauling Trash!
I would like to see SBI and OPA use the same rules. I think average lap speed would be just fine! That being said, I agree with Augie, lets just go out, race and have fun!! :)

Every time a thread like this gets started I vow that if I participate, I will never do it again. This has been tossed around so many times. But here I go again. I don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings I'm just expressing myself.

Qball,
I agree with you about larger boats having an advantage in almost all conditions. Sonic boom beat us soundly in Cambridge even though they said they had oil pressure problems.

Augie,
There is no valid comparison to your boat that can be made. Truly it is one of a kind. I am just happy to be still alive after you almost ran over us in Cambridge. Purely accidental guys and I don't know how close it was but
The Godfather was very quick to apologize.

My thoughts on P class racing. My first race was in 1999
in Baltimore. Did a one day with APBA and raced in the local class under National Club Class Tour rules. These rules had six classes with class 6 being bone stock. We were in class 5, mixture of outboards and I/O with limits on length according to power. Class one was big power cats. Class 2 was big v's with big power, etc. NO ONE put their boat in a class. That was done by I think 2 tech inspectors who placed you in the proper class. At the drivers meeting after some discussion there were a couple of boats that changed classes with everyones OK. There were no top speeds and no lap speeds. And there was no complaining, finger pointing, etc after the race.

My thoughts on what would make a good P5 class are:

Single engine ( possibly twin outboards)
26 or 27 foot maximum length
510 cu. in
approx max hp 500-550 (or whatever is deemed reasonable)
9:1 compression ratio (or something like that)
No stepped hulls
No superchargers
25" or so maximum prop pitch

I think those specs would make an equitable class in which you would not have to have a speed limit. Boats conforming to these specs would probably run close to 70 mph but certainly not much more. I'm pretty sure there are enough boats out there to fill P5 under these rules.
One more thoght. All of us are not interested in stepping up to a spec class. Nor are we able. Finances and time keep us from doing anything on a National basis. How many times can we get away to Florida in a season.


Ray
P5-79 Not Guilty

Augie,
Personally I have no issue with a 30+ foot pleasure craft (condo as you say) racing P4. The weight does matter and it will always be more difficult to get your boat up to speed than say my 2600 lb rocket.

For some reason I seem to have issue with "full race" twins in P4, Then again, what the hell, bring it on!!!!! Just do it on my turf.

Everyone in this forum is correct and all of us are wrong. For some reason the guys with singles (including me) could do more if we wanted to.... I mean if the Sonic can prop down, I could toss on a whipple and prop down, there is no way a twin would out accelerate me then.

While I agree with Ryan stating don't prop down, run it wide open.... if others are going to do it, single engine boats can as well.

So I recant my earlier position, all boat that run under 79.9 during a race should be eligable for P4 (69.9 P5, etc). If you are losing with your boat, figure out a way within the rules to win (or continue lose).

Rick "looking forward to kicking some twin butt"

race
 

its funny to read this as i was the 35 sled that raced at pittsburg in the popra race and we ran the whole race in calm water drives never left the water!!! not even close,,, and we ran the whole race at between 80-82.5 mph gps'd propped it and set it up on purpose that way for p 4 .. hmmm we got 3rd and i can say we didnt lift for the corners non step good old girl doesnt care about turns like step bottoms ladies do,,
so bottom line is!!
doesnt matter what the speed is or anythig in P class just run 1-2 classes down so u have 10 mph on em.
we got beat by elim cat runnin at least 85 + and a bat running mid 80's close to 90 as they were hanging with the lavey team and i believe kevin said they were high jhigh 80's//
calm water,,, so the reality here is if u want to win and take home a checker either protest or run down a class..
with this in check i think need s to happen is handicap racing,,, i/e sailboat golf etc..
think about this..
35 fountain 80 mph boat
bat boat 87 mph boat
28 skater 100 mph boat
26 scarab 70
a good math person could calculate the time it would take to run the course at ideal cond in ea boat,, right??
now take and deduct tme from the faster boat to handicap them and one guy could literally be 10 min or whatever behind and still win as he drove the boat to the MAX CAPACITY OF WHAT IT CAN DO NOT WHAT HE SAYS, so really it comes down to driver. u could be in a 46 skater with 1300's or a 26 scarab with a 454 , that would be a great local race venue, all equal when it come so the money and equipment so to speak
i think this would be a huge draw for folks as i would not do what i did again, i will race again but i gaurantee that i would not be 3rd again, not that i am great or anything but i feel that i have learned alot and would do something very different next time,unless rules change,
my team sponsors etc and my self had a freaking blast and truly enjoyed the people competitors and thought it was a great group of people, but i am not gooing to go out and just get spanked again,, i have raced superbikes formula 2 bikes formula twins motocross etc and i can take a good dice and lose but i cant lay down,
so what is the answer i am open here as this is an open forum, i dont have 500k for a race budget,, i want to race but not like last time as i have 0 chance. it wuld be like taking a pinto to a drag race against a viper,, i have a viper and no pintos want to race! hmm why?

foks i am looking for your thoughts on this,
thanks
P4-56

The fact that Sonic Racing was allowed to race P4 with a boat that was an F2 boat the prior year was almost offensive. While I harbor no hard feeling toward them, as they were but playing within the rules, it was not exactly in the spirit of a "run what you brung class", as their boat was capable of much much more.

My .02.

rick

i think a canopied race boat like yours is way way more out of place when it comes to a p class bu there again its all about how u percieve things, and where and what classes are avail..
i could take my new boat out an smoke the p4 class so bad it would be pathetic but that wouldnt be right thats not racing by the book.. the new 35 should run 100 . so i change props and make it accelerate like a freakin banchee and win thats not the answer,,, we would be back to who spends the most mney wins.that is supe cat :) not what i intended or can or want to do..
rick your thoughts???? any other bats out this way u thik?

Jonas,
I do not think you can use GPS from the Pittsburg race as an indication on how fast boats really are.

On the back stretch which is where everyone was telling what their speed was, there was a 5+ knot current. So a 80 mph boat, was hitting 87 on the GPS.

No one was telling you what their speed was on the front chute where you were working aganist the current. Kevin can tell you all day that his boat is 87, but there are a bunch of other F1 boats that can tell you he is not (see St. Pete), as they are not 87 mph boats and beat the Lavey.

We were running 85 down the back straight, that is true, but it was with the benefit of a 6-7 mph current. Down the front staight we were running 75.

I would be happy to let you sit in the bat at any time and give it all it has in water with no current. This weekend in perfect conditions we took the boat to Folsom and the best we got was 81.5.

Now that was in 65 degree weather, on 1-2 foot chop (i.e. perfect running conditions). In Pittsburg it was 90+ degrees so that is good to take 1-2 mph out of a boat.

Just like in St. Pete (where we ran a One Design bat boat) we beat you and the others based on acceleration and corning ability. Tim and I have practiced as much if not more than anyone racing P class at turning in different water types. Including 5+ days in Pittsburg so that we had the turn onto the front straight nailed.

That turn could cost you 200+ yards if you do not do it correctly. We won that race due to preparation, not an illegal boat.

We also spent 5+ days testing in Benicia so that we would be ready to run the straights.

Please take me up on my offer to run in the Bat, although you will be dissaponted that 90 is not in the boats vocabulary.

best wishes,
Rick

LOL:D Will do Augie, its hot as hell down here already


Albert

Jonas,
I hope my post did not come accross wrong. Personally I am glad that you are questionnig the legality of my boat.

We did win big, with that stated I welcome any APBA or POPRA offical to test our boat to see if we should be racing in P3. Tim and I would welcome it, as it would put any doubt to rest.

Next time I see you I will lend you a copy of the One Design race in St. Pete. Not racing our boat but another bat boat, we won by 2+ miles (about the same as we won in Pitt). This was in identically prepared boats. We won based on our ability to corner in those boats at full speed. Tim and I have worked on this very very hard, twice now that work has paid off.

While I know everyone thinks they corner as fast, but I assure you they do not. Think about it, if we corner at the exact same speed, and you are only 30' wider around a turn that is 500 feet long, we have just gained 1500 feet on you in one corner. Multiply that by the number of corners in a race (I think 18 for Pittsburg), that is 27000 feet, which is more than 5 miles. We did not beat you that bad.

But I assure you the difference is in the corners. Also do you drive and throttle? If so that is costing you time.

If you can get to a point where you can turn as tight as we can at the same speed, we will have one heck of a race on our hands.

Please, please take me up on my offer to drive the bat. We would love to have you up for a day to boat and watch the DVD's of Pittsburg and St. Pete.

Best wishes,
Rick

Well said as always Ryan, I agree with a legnth rule if people are going to sandbag, which they certainly have been doing the last few years.

Chris

And I will add Rick and Tim are 2 of the best racers out there, and I have been in boats with hundreds and hundreds of racers. They came from a racing background, test all the time, and proved how good they were by winning the St. Pete race on one of the year's most difficult courses.

After watching the tape, I can easily see how they beat us in the race, but I know I learned from it, so bring it on next year guys.

P.S. And the boat they ran in ran 16 races last year, and only won one other race, incidentially with Eric Treadwell and Norman Colby at the helm. We hear it all the time... this boat this and that boat that. Truth is some are better racers than others. And some take P2 boats and run them in P4 to try and compete with them.

any thoughts on some sort of handicap so there would be larger class and would come down to how fast u can run your particular boat, whether its an huge cat or small single.

rick i believe u,, dont take this wrong i am just using as an example, it was our first time, but my point was simply that in boat racing there has to be a better way to get attendence up participation etc, the fact that we had our boat firewalled the whole time i dont think we lifted once as it was so calm, i was just trying to come up with a way there would be more excitement

this is a program avail for sailing same concept just butt slow, :)
Description: Program supplied on one disk that is self-installing. The program installs and runs without any problems. The manual is of the highest standards and is an excellent reference source for insights into handicap scoring. The program handles: PHRF, both time-on-distance, and time-on-time (a scratch boat can be entered as well as the method of calculating the time-on-time factor); IMS, fully compatible with the 96' certificate format; Portsmouth, including wind correction factors; IOR, IMOR, Americap and One Design Classes. IMS allows for the use of a "standard scratch boat" or a "real scratch boat". The new for 1997 Americap scoring provides corrected time calculations using both the "A" time-on-time factor and the "B" time-on-distance factor. The factors used depend on the course type selected. The program features a multitude of definable scoring parameters. Scoring methods are easily changed. A permanent master file is created with boat, owner and handicap information. An event can have up to 10 races and have 300 boats. Multiple throw out races can be handled. A selection of tie breaking methods is provided. A multitude of race committee scratch and work sheets, as well as competitor data sheets and result sheets can be selected and printed. A section for printing mailing labels is included. Data entry is organized in an efficient manner, and handling large events is very quick. Options for keeping time by stop watch or time of day are provided, and a full set of various ASCII file formats are supported for importing and exporting data, now including exporting ASCII text files with imbedded html codes and html extension for direct web publishing. The 2001.1 update also brought the program into compliance with the Racing Rules of Sailing 2001-2004. The program provides built in tie breaking routines and testing has verified compliance with the revised Appendix A (by modifying the tie breaking sequence

I think all of this coversation if very very healthy and I love being questioned.... really I do.

It reminds me of my car racing days. If we left a track on Saturday night and someone did not "protest" us, all that said is we were not fast enough. So it was time to work harder.

Sonic Racing and others should take this "attention" as a compliment. To be honest, I would love a crack at them. There is nothing that feels better than to beat the unbeatable, just ask any member of the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Team.

All I know is that I would love for Jonas to be out racing with us in 2004 and if that means that I change classes, so be it.

Although Jonas I really think you need to talk to Chris Reindl about a boat.

best wishes to all,
Rick

rick, u are killing me. the bat is a badass boat and i love em but too mucho dinero ithink not rich like u man...
i am meeting with jim in a few minutes and we are going to figure out what to do,,, hmmm
bat, skater. f1, or? i am just getting more confused. as dont want to buy something with no class or anyone to race against. i am used to a grip of 50+ going into turn 1 at sears etc.
later bud...

Jonas, Have you sold your boat yet?

its going on trade on a newer one.

Thanks for all your input guys. We are getting alittle side tracked on the original thread,so if you could please let us know your thoughts on the 30 and under rule for P4,and P5. Tomorrow will be your last chance to be heard. As it looks so far it seems that most of you agree that 30 and under in p4,and p5 would work. We will tally your votes tomorrow plus all the emails and phone calls we've gotten.As it stand now it looks like the majority agrees that a rule needs to be put into affect.

AGAIN THANK YOU ALL YOU HAVE SPOKE AND WE ARE LISTENING

i think the 30 and under would eliminate alot of boats.
there are alot of people with older non step low hp boats that would be eliminated.
i think to grow the sport which its in dyer need for,, there needs to be a whole new concept,,, and i think, i have an answer,
but i will start a new thread re that
no on 30 and under as would further turn people away.
my 02
Jonas

I thought the whole concept behind the P classes was that you could run whatever you want..... I contemplated running P-4 for my first few races because I am not comfortable running close to 90mph with 2 new people in the boat. This would be a great way to get some seat time in race conditions, to have some competition yet not be in over my head, and to be another boat out there. Would I get protested in P-4 with the Virgin Gladiator???

d-hlaw

SBI's P3 class is 70-80 mph average speed,so you would fit in that class perfect. SBI does not race top speed they use average lap speed. Rule of thumb is a boat usally averages 10 mph below its top speed in ideal conditions. Hope that anwser your question.If you need any other info.please feel free to give me a call.
Are you planing to race Miami??

P5 60-64.9
P4 65-69.6
P3 70-79.9
P2 80-89.9
P1 90-100
All of the above are average lap speeds

Thank you,

Frank
"Koolhand"
321 693-0023

P classes should have nothing to do with how you run your boat, it should be about your boats capabilities.
D-hlaw your boat is a P3 boat and should be run as such.

Frank, what class are you in if you run 69.7 or 69.8?
there doesnt seem to be any room for those boats;) :D

P-5 30' and under Single engine only in P-5, 68mph
P-4 28' - 34' Single or twin with speed limits 80 mph
P-3 30' - 38' Twin with speed limits 87 mph
P-2 32' - 40' Twin with speed limits 98 mph
P-1 32' - 36' Cat Twin with speed limits 105 mph
PX 36' - 40' Cat Twin no limits
Here there is room for movement in the classes, no average speed just speed
Did a State Trooper ever pull you over and say "your average speed between mile marker #90.1 and 95.1 was 70 mph"? I don't think so, if you brake the speed your out PERIOD.

Scott that would put u in P5....

Frank
"Koolhand"

I probably wont race Miami. I want to have fun more than anything right now, so I will just sign up for the right class and go as fast as I can without scaring myself. I am looking forward to getting out there though!!!

F1-00 we are talking race boats right, "60 mph" my little 18' jet boat runs that, get rid of lap speed overall speed is the way to go

Frank, I was just bustin your chops because you put 69.6 in your post

To be honest, I like the sealed GPS rule but a breakout by less than 1mph wich can easily happen and does should equal a time penalty not disqualification. 30 seconds for each 10th over.But, you guys make the rules so I will put my vote in for size limitations

Guys, keep in mind the P class were started to give Everybody a place to race. I would not support any rule that leaves anybody on the beach. It will always be difficult to keep an even playing field considering the vast disparity in boats. The goal is to compete

MM I agree, that is why I like GPS verification thw best

Yeah! What you guys just said...

As a long time racer, I believe you cannot put a new rule into effect less than one month before the start of the racing season. You have a rule book already for the 2004 season. You need to change rules well before the start of a new racing year. You will wind up putting some boats who have already have engines in them at a major disadvantage. Not everyone with a larger boat has money to blow on high horsepower engines just to win a $5.00 trophy.
Everytime you change a rule such as this, you will lose some boats. As an example, some years ago we were racing A thru E classes. The single engine A class guys were complaining that they couldn't compete with the small block twin engine boats. So what happened? They changed the rule to make A class a single engine class and instead of having 15 boats show up in A class the nexy year, we had 3. Great idea hah?
Leave the classes as they are or we will start to destroy this production class that was started as run what you brung. The idea of this class of racing is to go out and have some fun. Stop being so serious and just race and stop whining. Lets Race Guys and Girls

Get a Poll going on this issue:rolleyes:

Although I have stated differently before, I believe no changes should be made.

Leave it alone and race.

I agree with Rick and after the race you all can come down into my kitchen on The Flying Condo and have a Salami and Mozz Hero with some beautiful roasted peppers and sun dried tomatoes, olive oil and a nice glass of Italian wine, Jersey Boyz Style!

All I want to know??????????????
 

Do I get to race with Frankie? In P-3? Hold on to your lu
g nutz.

Rule changes dont effect me, however there are boats that have already been powered for this season. And quite a few boats that raced in the past are coming back with the intention of racing with OPA and SBI, We have supported our southern friends but by having different class rules is going to eliminated some of these boats from competition, Had the changes been addressed earlier, they could have adjusted their power. A little late in the game to change the classes. Especially since all the P4 boats that ran SBI last year where over 30 ft. Also in your poll......how many are actually registered to race? Only registered racers should have a say. The boyz up North are growing in #'s and have run with SBI. There are 12 boat in P4 That are over 30 ft some of which are single engines. Could never compete in P3. Keep the classes the same for all racing associations and the class will grow. Change it now and you will loose the momentum. The problem has always been changing rules from day to day a little stability is in order. Smitty

I was wondering if this proposed rule change has anything to do with self-interest. I mean what size boat does F1-00 race? mmmmmmmmm I wonder? Is it 30 ft. and under?

Touchez!!!:chick: :crazy: :D ;)

In the interest of unification, I think it would be best if all organizations had the same rules period!