Originally Posted by 26 REDLINE (Post 2977224)

Hey RD....you have a friend over here in the sandbox, let me know if I need to have my personal online forums attorney KAP:lolhit: on here he will help us out...:coolcowboy:

Originally Posted by CB-BLR (Post 2977254)

Ahhh... now we have my two favorite cats in the same thread. :ernaehrung004:

Chris

Originally Posted by RiverDave (Post 2977032)

Steve, I tried.. I even wrote a nice post or two offering apollogies for the post coming off negatively to try and keep this thread on track. Impressive 140 mph boat) but your relentless. Soooo...



Stevo.. Your arguing symantics here, but I'll play along.. So in your words you believe the Thor to be a cat, but the Stoker not to be.

A Cat as defined by you being a a tunnel OFFSHORE type boat. That being said you consider the Thor to be an "offshore" boat?

Seriously? Out here here they're considered lake boats. Nobody buys a Thor (or most any other cat with a center pod) with the intent of pounding around in the ocean with it, at least not where I'm from.



1 boat - two tunnels one center pod
1 boat - two tunnels one center pod.. Differeng forms of air entrapment?



We're not talking about Stokers.. The thread was in regard to a 140mph Thor, and subsequently a portion of that boat (I brouhgt up regrettably) the hatch ram system.

Your trying very hard to "qualify" your opinions on things that are completely irrelevant. I once knew a hooker named Charlotte, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about either? If your qualifying all that on the bottom of the boat? Rest assured they are both tunnels with center pods. As it applies to a speed record I'm not sure i they would be in the same class as there is a considerably size difference. Being that I don't know of any sanctioning body actually running a "bravo speed record" though the point is somewhat moot. The "records" are usually claimed by people that have just gone out and run insane #'s.. I don't believe they are actually "recorded" / sanctioned by anybody.

That's all tit for tat though Steverino.. :) .



I questioned the engineering of one tiny part of the boat and you flipped your lid. You are relentless.. So fine we'll have the discussion now.

If you think anything about that hatch ram system is "well engineered" then you need to have your head examined. There are fairly basic principals at play here, and it's mind boggling (and very telling) to me that you can't see it.

The original hatch ram system attaches directly to the engine hatch via a piece of angle bolted to the hatch. When the hatch lifts the assy is in "compression" and when it pulls down it's in "tensile" and makes for an incredibly strong setup (in relation to a hatch pulling up at speed) This also applies to the person whom brought up the large fountain engine hatches with a single ram.

Now follow me here genius.. Because this really isn't all that complicated. They took the original piece of angle, and loaded it LATERALLY, no longer in compression or tensile. Weak link # 1. This will allow movement. Then they loaded that up with an "arm" (yes that's an actual engineering term fruitloop) that's probably 12 inches or so long judging by the pics, then attached the other end to a hatch ram that has literally zero side to side stabillity..

So lets get into the actual specifics Steve.. What could possibly go wrong with that whole program? Well lets say your running at 140, and you run across some cross wind, or even a temperature differential (hot spots and cold spots on the water), let say you even run across some little side wind, doesn't much matter. Lets say that any of those circumstances create even a 1/2 PSI of vacuum on the front half of that engine hatch (very, very possible)

The hatch itself is what.. 4 1/2 long by 6 1/2 - 7 feet wide? Well lets divide that by 2 so that only HALF the engine hatch (front half where vacuum would most likely be created) is in play.

2' x 6' for round #'s.. PSI = Pounds per square inch. 1/2 pound per square inch.. So you take (this is only HALF of the engine hatch mind you) 24 inches multiplied by 72 inches which gives you a grand total of 1,728 inches.. Now we're using a differential pressure of a 1/2 pd, so we divide that by 2.. Which equals 864 pounds of lifting pressure on that engine hatch.

Now in a traditional setup that's not that big of a deal. You can hang a ton of weight on a hatch ram in tensile. They won't be able to move it one way or the other under those loads, but to maintain it in a down position is no problem. Even the angle in tensile you could probbaly hang the whole boat off that piece of angle with no problems in direct tensile..

But that is not the case here.. It's loaded laterally, and has 12 inches of leverage (arm) and is secured to a hatch ram with no lateral support.

Let me make this even clearer for you.. Take a piece of angle, put a 12 inch bar in it and bolt it to something as seen here, and just walk up and push the end of the bar up and down. (How much effort do you think this will take to move the end of the bar?) Being a machinist that's around metals all the time, (qualifying?) I could whip you up a little test assembly, but off the top of my head.. I'd wager you could move the end of that bar up and down 1/4 - 1/2 inch with minimal effort. That is the scenario here.. Probably 50 - 100 lbs and you have all kinds of play in the setup. (I'm going to come back to this)

Now put it in a real world scenario, and you have 864 lbs.. Well you can divide that by 2 because there are two of them.

That setup isn't good for 432 lbs on a good day.. And that's the REAL WORLD scenario your in, if only 1/2 pd of differential pressure is generated. So what happens if we even generate a 1/4 psi.. Well we go back to that piece of angle with a 12 inch rod sticking out of it. We apply 216 pds to that rod, and guess what it moves quite a bit. What happens when that happens on the boat Steve.. The hatch comes up Steve, the hatch comes up....

Now when your hatch "peeks up" for a second you can throw your 1/4 and 1/2 psi's right out the window.. Now you got problems.

It's easily fixed (for the 2nd time now) by either attaching the rams back in tension to the engine hatch, or adding a 2nd piece of angle to that bar, to create a box, which takes it out of lateral loading again.

So forgive me Steve for not buying into your "well engineered" post.

Now who knows, maybe the guy will get lucky? Maybe he will never impart on a situation that even causes any pressure differential what so ever? I kinda doubt it, but maybe who knows?

What I do know is that for less than 10 bucks in material, and a dollar worth of screws, he'd never have to worry about it again. That was the intent of the information Steve.. It wasn't to talk trash on his boat, it was to say "Hey, you got yourself a 100+K dollar rig, for 10 bucks you can solve a potential problem."



I certainly can see the difference.. Your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The Thor has a center pod, the Stoker has a center pod, an American Offshore has a center pod, most every west coast cat has a center pod..

Maybe you can see the similarity? Maybe not?



Well I dunno about that Steve.. that's post # 11, and with it I pretty much just proved that your an idiot.. (with facts and simple logic)

I'm sure that picking on the newbie routine works out for ya every now and again.. But on the flipside..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvft9Dd8S0w

In short Steve maybe I'm not your avergae newbie? LOL This whole boating message board thing isn't exactly new to me. ;) Using your post count as some sort've online muscle though? (qualifying opinions with a post count? WTF?) Weak Steve... Just weak.

RD

Originally Posted by RiverDave (Post 2977350)

Ok Steve you are correct. I am wrong, the laws of math and physics do not apply here. Both boats are not tunnels with center pods. And clearly the tunnel of an Mti represents the difference between a Thor and a stoker.. As well your extensive post count clearly qualifies your opinion more so then a lowly <gasp> newbie. On top of which it is my ego that is blinding the from the truth in the whole matter. As well your incessant harassment of me in this thread even after I made two somewhat apollogetic posts for even bringing it up has no bearing in my responses... Scratch that unprovoked attacks on you and your abillity to see what is plain as day in front of you. Finally I will admit your extensive career drag racing outboards somehow does make you a quantifiable expert on anything relating to boats, water, hatch rams, and unsanctioned speed records. There now I have admitted fault on all acounts.

Please accept my sincerest appologies for the misunderstanding.

We good now? :)

RD


RD

Originally Posted by Steve Zuckerman (Post 2977403)

Dave,
You obviously have a degree of expertise on boats. I know a little about them too. Despite your obviously and overtly sarcastic reply, yes we are good.
In your professional opinion, was my boat a cat? I am curious.
Steve

Originally Posted by RiverDave (Post 2977721)

Relentless? I have no idea.. The bottom of the boat looked to be underwater making it somewhat difficult to take a gander at it.

Would you consider a 28 Daytona to be a Cat? What about a 25? 22? 21? But most importantly, would you consider a 19' Daytona to be a Cat? At what point in your mind does a cat become a "tunnel v" or whatever you called it?

If your arguing the case of the center pod being above the sponsons..(to officially make it a cat) I can assure you the center pod is below on several boats you'd openly call "Cats" and above on several boats you'd openly say aren't?

If you want to debate this, I'd be happy to via PM.. or start another thread in the general discussion forum, and post away, I'll be happy to go tit for tat all day long.. Too answer your question..

In my mind anything with two outer "sponsons" designed as an air entrapment hull would be a "cat."

Now Why don't we let this guy get back to his thread?

RD

Originally Posted by Steve Zuckerman (Post 2977772)

Well River Dave,
For years, I thought I knew what kind of boat my ass was sitting in, but now you've got me all confused. I was just checking in with the expert :grinser010:............
Steve

Originally Posted by RiverDave (Post 2977792)

Steve I'm quite sure there are a lot of things in life that you think you know a lot about, that you are completely clueless on.. It seems to be your predominant personality trait for some odd reason. (Eat Lead paint as a child? Grew up under powerlines? I dunno..)

RD :D

Originally Posted by CB-BLR (Post 2978034)

Relax Steve... he is just funning with you.

You and I both know that you regularly ate leaded paint as a child...while playing on the power lines. How else could you explain your electrifying personality and rugged good looks. :lolhit:

Chris

Originally Posted by RiverDave (Post 2978055)

Steve I didn't like ya, I wouldn't take the time to joke with you. ;). I appreciate the fact that your like a timex. Takes a lickin and keeps on tickin. :).

RD

Originally Posted by mattdearing (Post 2978204)

Woh... WE got a little side tracked there. That was like drinking with my brothers kids! :drink: Anyway Paul, very Impressive Thor I never understood how you kept that rage from walk N all over? I couldn't keep my rage set at 75 (I blamed it on the steering) I know your beyond it now but Any suggestions or tricks on chine walk I'm having the same problem with my Heat w/ full hydraulic steering dropping tabs just increases drag and defeats my purpose

Originally Posted by CB-BLR (Post 2978159)

Now now Dave.... I dont think you should be a talkin about givn Steve a lickin ... he is not your type... he likes girls. :lolhit:

Chris

p.s. you walked right into that one

Originally Posted by RiverDave (Post 2978279)

Tombstone.. :D I love it.

What kind of drive do you have on the back of it? A Bravo? XR?

If you have a bravo casing with beefed up internals, I have something you could try that might cure your ails..

RD

Originally Posted by mattdearing (Post 2978204)

Woh... WE got a little side tracked there. That was like drinking with my brothers kids! :drink: Anyway Paul, very Impressive Thor I never understood how you kept that rage from walk N all over? I couldn't keep my rage set at 75 (I blamed it on the steering) I know your beyond it now but Any suggestions or tricks on chine walk I'm having the same problem with my Heat w/ full hydraulic steering dropping tabs just increases drag and defeats my purpose

Originally Posted by bobl (Post 2978714)

Matt, what speeds are you starting to have handling problems with your Heat? I had one running 900 hp with Bravo/ITS that handled perfect up to 95+. CB-BLR and Steve both have Heats running over 90 with no issues. So, you would have to assume the surfacing drive is impacting the handling. I would love to hear more about your setup, performance and handling.

Bob

Originally Posted by Steve Zuckerman (Post 2979098)

Hi Matt and Bob,
It may well be related to the NXT drive (which I like, obviously it can take some HP) or propellers (generally larger diameter than Bravo based props). Large diameter props do tend to twist boats around at high speed when there is little wetted surface to keep the boat stabilized. Most of the NXT/#6 props I've seen are cleaver type/surface props which are transom lifting designs, not good for our application. They tend to lift the tail, then you have to trim up to overcome the tail lift, sometimes making everything go to hell. Most of us are running bow lifting props, in the 15.25"s diameter range. In other words, you may have to do a lot of prop testing. Chris knows the Hering guys, and can probably hook you up.
It could just be the hydrodynamics of the drive (the lower) itself. It does work well on some boats (tunnels and twin applications). It doesn't on others. On Fountains, they have to put #6 lowers on their 600/700/NXT boats to get them to run properly. Should it come to that, the very efficient #6 lower will bolt right up to your upper. Some of us with Bravo/Imco drives and lowers have had good results with spacers of varying sizes (1" to 1/4"). We just don't have much data base on your application yet, but it should be great (fast and reliable) when you get it sorted out.
Matt, I agree that tabbing it out is just treating the problem, not fixing it, and not efficient. I only use my tabs for planing a heavy load of people/gas/gear, rough water, or a lateral imbalance. I try to stabilize my boat (laterally) with the gas level in the saddle tanks. I always run 1/4 more on the driver's/starboard side to overcome RH propeller torque. Unfortunately my buddy Butch aka Mayor McCheese is getting fat, and I have to run some tab on his side now :grinser010:.............
I think you can fix it with prop testing/custom work and some seat time.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Best Regards,
Steve

Originally Posted by mattdearing (Post 2980333)

Great Information! Starts in at cruising speeds and over will run 90MPH but I don't have the balls to drive with the progressive chine walk I'm running a cleaver with a 1/2 inch spacer There's a lot of leverage out there with the NXT box and drive hanging off, But even with that, I think your right on track with the aft hull lift and I'm trimming out pretty far (then I got a mess) Chris mentioned Prop as well, Would be nice if I could just change the prop? and fix the problem, humm... A #6 lower would be super efficient though. Very Helpful Info Thanks Again!

Originally Posted by CB-BLR (Post 2980675)

Matt,

I have been out of town for a few days, delivering my motor to Dustin.

If you would like to try some props.. Hering or otherwise, give me a call.

Chris

206-235-4545

Originally Posted by Jerry Sabatino (Post 2981258)

mat i have and heat 540 imco box , bravo , and a 32 labbed four blade and just ran the chattanooga poker run saturday. the boat ran between 98 and a 100 all day trimmed to 3 the only thing in the water was the drive and the notch a the end of the transom. not a bit of chine walk with three people in the boat and about 60 gallons of gas. these hulls like allot of air if you try to keep them flat u will not get away from the chine walk. just my two cents for what its worth. jerry

Originally Posted by mattdearing (Post 2998392)

Thanks Steve. Interesting, I had some feed back real similar to that from a friend who builds boats for the Navy. I am going to do a Whipple Kit 1st then play with props increasing cup and see if I can get more bow lift. If that fails I will be shopping for a #6 Lower. I am not sure if its a good plan but its what I got right now?... Thanks Again!

Originally Posted by Steve Zuckerman (Post 2998528)

Hi Matt,
I'm sure if Mercury Racing reads this, their hair will catch on fire, but every time I see a (rather blunt) Next1 lower, it makes me wonder if the addition of a nose cone (like an Imco)
would improve the hydrodynamic efficiency of the gearcase.
Lengthening the gearcase and improving the blunt impact angle of that lower couldn't hurt. I haven't heard of anyone doing it yet, and I don't know if I would want to be the guinea pig, but I don't see how it could hurt.
It may be worth a call to Imco. I haven't seen a nose cone advertised for the Next1, but it shouldn't be too hard to modify a Bravo style (nose cone) unit, and it would be a lot cheaper than a #6 lower.
Best Regards,
Steve

Originally Posted by nordic 1 (Post 2973655)

Its the motor out of the Rage. I think it makes some where aroud 12 to 1300.