496 in F1
 

Do you think maybe the Factory class boats should go to 496 EFI motors next year? and let the Super Vee boats run the 525 or the Vortec motor. We are all being forced to build boats way heaver to slow them down to stay competitive with older technology. This may rebuild the Factory fleet.
Mad Dog

Randy,
I'm with ya!! I have asked the exact same question as far back as two years ago. I think the biggest problem was that Mercury, and Mercury Racing, are two different companies. Mercury Racing makes big bucks off of Offshore racing, so I'm sure they wasn't too wild about losing all those sales.
On the other hand, I would think Mother Mercury would be all for it.
It also solves a number of problems, including- speed, cost, and availability of parts, (for those of us in Kansas, and other armpits of the world).
Of course, you realize that if Factory class changed to 496 Mag HO motors, you are going to have some pissed off teams that are all dialed in with their current power...

I remember a few years ago when APBA-Offshore played with the idea of limiting props, but this was one of the few areas that teams could change for their specific tastes and conditions. Besides, some boats handle better with Hydromotive Q-IV's, some handle better with Mercury's. Also, it gives the prop manufacturers a chance to be a part of the competition, (read: R&D and advertising), which has helped the recreational consumer in the long run. There are also a number of propeller lab finishing/repair service that offer good props to racers and recreational boaters alike that have gained from their involvement in racing.
On the other hand, APBA DOES limit the amount of thinning that can be done to prop blades. This in itself contributes to the safety factor, (fewer blades coming off), and, albeit fractional, limits speed gains. All (top 4 places) pro series props go through their own tech inspection post race.

At this time most under 30' performance boats being sold to the average Joe, come equipped with the 496. Meaning the guy who watches the race (either live or on Speedvision) at this time can associate with the 496 more than the 525 or Vortec.

So if the objective is to race what you sell then the 496 makes sense. In addition this change would make the class more affordable for the average Joe to participate in.

Let's face it, most guys who you are trying to get into the sport want to think they can run the "premier" class, which for under 30' boats is F1, not P4 or P5. If they thought their current boat could run in the premier class, they would be less hesitant to get involved.

Gordo, I know this will sound funny based on the fact that we have never met, but you are what I envison F1 racing to be about. The pleasure boat, slightly modified to go racing, but can still be used for the family.

The main reason we selected P4 over F1, is that the wife mandated that I have a roof over my head if we are going to race, thus the boats we had to choose from were not F1 certified. Not to mention but I am fortunate enough to have a wife that encouraged I get a second boat to race with.

Rick

Yes!

F1 and F2

I am not a Factory class guy , but don't you think there are too many motor packages availble to the class now, and how many lower budget teams want to go out and by ANOTHER motor now. The is one of the things that Killed the twin OB class that they switced 3 differen engine packages in 3 years and you had to upgrade or you were on competitive. My $.02

If this was to happen, I would gladly (for free) swap my 496ho for their 500 EFI.

No need to thank me, just trying to help.

:D

I like that idea. And this might just be the time for it (unless you've just dropped a Vortec in your boat, or unless Mercury has just shipped you a spanking new HP525, as it happened to Randy - see attached.)

- Buy on Saturday, race on Sunday
- Neither high HP525 prices nor the generous Vortec leasing program (oops, didya buy that GM truck?) have racers jumping up and down
- Sponsor money is very tight, if at all available: 75 grand v.v. 100 grand does make a difference.
- With GM in the game, Merc might have a totally different view now than 2 years ago ....

Question, would the 496 last, does it have all the good sh it that the 500 & 525 has, roller cam, lifters, crank and rods, I have know Idea what's in the 496, the exhaust looks as if it would choke the engine, maybe some one couls shed some light on the subject.

Eddie
F1-68 WORLD PLAYER CASINO .COM

Eddie good question. I don't know but I think a 496 with a XR drive is pretty much bullet proof. The question is if the manufacture can build a boat that is up to the beating of F1 class racing? Which brings us back to FACTORY boats. We are down to 8-15 serious F1 teams and I am afraid we have scared away alot of the manufactures in our class. Lets face it, if your not winning or close to winning you can do more damage to your co. than good.
I am one of the teams that has made the investment in technology but in the spirit of the sport I would be willing to change to the 496 next year. We just need a 1 year warning. Factory racing needs a boost and maybe a less expensive motor package might be the answer.
MD

how much time will it take to decide this?? Joey's donzi ( f2-21)runs about 15 secs faster than, the donzi's with the 500hp? and that was on smooth water.

Thanks Steve for you input, I know you guys do work hard for the competitiveness of our sport and spend a lot of time and effort on F1. This year has presented alot of variables, 500,500efi,525,vortects and different drive combinations I see how this has caused a nightmare creating polarity, if their is anyway we as racers can help let us know.

Eddie Simmons

PLEASE don't use that as an example IT IS A VERY POOR one!....there are still 500 efi boats beating 525 boats! we have spent countless hours working on the set up of that boat....and now you want to compare it to a boat where two rookies get in it with NO dial in time and VERY little seat time spin it out in the first race and flip in the second race...

when we started testing with the added 600 lbs and the new drives our accelerations times were low!...cornering speed was a down right JOKE!...when we completed our work...our acceleration times were cut in HALF...our cornering speed was up 15 mph at a minimum...
have a look at this clip....were slower than a few boats on the straight going into the first pin! one of the with 500's!!...and on the restart as well, it also had 500's....

http://myriadfx.com/audacityracing/daytona_v1.mpg

so if you think just buying 525's is the answer to getting back "15 seconds".....have at it and we'll just let the results speak for themselves...

well if you win all the races this year, what then, it is not a poor way of looking at it i am looking at it from the outside, and just stating a fact. i am sure you have done your testing and slide rule calculations to make you the fastest thing out there but time will tell if the 525's are faster even with the weight added. but keep in mind it is a long season and when its time for the nationals in the bahama's if other boats dont have a chance to beat you, you will end up racing there by yourself which defeats the purpose of evenly matched boats. does it not?? i had heard that the boats should run fairly even in both flat and rough water, with the hp 500's slightly faster in the smooth added weight helping in the rough, driver exp is important as well, I am only asking how many races till they decide that more weight should be added , taken away what ever. dont take things so personal, it is not attack on you.

ps...what about the teams being beat buy 5 year old boats with carbureted 500 engines???next they will want them to only run on 6 cylinders to make it more fair for their lack of effort and or skill???

sorry i feel it is a personal attack!
most have no idea of the hours everyone put into the team/boat...it's ABSURD...i do not take this like a hobby or weekend racer...sorry...we put 110% into it!....EVERY TEAM out there has all the same opportunities that we do...

you are right,,,daytona maybe are only good finish of the year...time will tell....but make no mistake we are not at rest! we are still testing and retesting to be better and faster EVERY time we go out....

add weight??...yeah so the 500's can kick the **** out the rest of the 525 worse...they are going to have a hard time justifying adding weight to 525's when there are still 500 finnishing in front of them!

1st...525's
2nd 500's!!
3rd 500's!!
4th 525's
5th 500's!!!...look for them to do better when they get it sorted out

The problem is that there is no way to calculate for experience. If Joey had 500 carbs and dialed his boat in with them there is a good chance he would still win. There are so many variables that having 4 different motors and 4 different drives configurations has people thinking its the equipment not the teams and set up. I would like just 1 motor and drive package from Merc. like it was started. That way the talent cant be denied and stop all the guessing on weights. I also feel that the 525 with the added weight and slower drives are at a disadvantage. The only way you can over come the weight is buy hours of testing and prop work. If you take a stock 525 set up and put it in the same boat you had a 500 in you will lose every time. The set up time is critical to over come the weight.
Mad Dog

You have to do apples to apples,apples to oranges doesn't work. running 4 diffrent packages doesn't work in factory racing. apba about a level playing field,make it level and SAFE and let the best guy or gal win. SCOTT

Without a doubt there are TOO many variables, it starts with the engine packages, one engine and one drive would be great. in what ever class top speed is very desirable (ie. race boat), with a emphasis on Safety. whatever vehicle you choose to race, you are putting yourself and machine to the edge of the envelope.

In my own opinion the f- classes are smaller due to the many variables we mention above, and forces the smaller guys that dont have a large budget, or a boat that is competitive out which hurts the growth of the sport. Fortunately some racers have at least moved over to p-class.

As for the skill level, nothing gives you skill like expierence, so yes testing plays a important part, being prepared for the race is also important, ie boat, crew etc.

and Joey if you didnt have the best boat out there do you think you would win???

having the best equipment helps in achieving a checkered flag, it is not a given but puts the odds in your favor.

it will be intresting to see how Randy's new boat runs.

people like mad dog are going to do whatever it take s to win races...period...the people behind him will always make excuses why HE does and not THEM....kinda human nature....someone once told me you can redistribute all the wealth and power in the world....but it's only a matter of time before it ends up right back where it came from...

he's also right about;....all of our testing with the 525's was done with less weight and the standard bravos...we were pleased...if rules were written as they are now,,,with out a doubt we would be in a 500 boat....and i would have a **** POT more vacation left instead of a list of time off without paydays.

also...most professional racing makes a rule change in a class and that's that....the newer stuff is the better way....the APBA still is trying to grandfather in.....and honestly not doing to bad of a job at it...how else do you explain world records, races, and championships are still being won by older boats and engines???

randy and bj,,,you have too much success in F1...i think we need to have you only run on 6 or 7....not all 8!!!

Your right on Pete!

here is another post so i have the last word on my opinion. :)

"nothing gives you skill like expierence"...i do not agree...true racers are racers...no matter what they are racing....i'm not even sure if it can be learned....everyone can walk on a 2x4 on the ground....start moving it up....at 10,000 feet it's still the same 2x4....how many people do you think can now walk it???

"and forces the smaller guys that dont have a large budget"....i'm going to vomit if i hear that again...kinda like when people tell me "genetics"....so much of testing has NOTHING to do with budget...TIME, DEDICATION, DISCIPLINE are some of the things that come to mind in any success story....there are A LOT more teams that more $$$ than us....

"and Joey if you didnt have the best boat out there do you think you would win???".....there are other DONZI's out there...why is mine better than theirs??? who won daytona last year in an old whipped POS boat?

Now i have to post one more time to get the last word in,
These are all your opinion and not nessisarily the same as others. But i still repect them, yours and others. dont agree but that again is my choice.

Please dont get sick on your keyboard they are hard to clean.

Testing takes time and money gas isnt free, at least not here, hell time isnt free you said so yourself, otherwise you would have more payed days off, to go test. Time, dedication, discipline are very important ingredients to success, but proper funding helps along the way!!

As for the 2x4 they are the same on the ground as at 10000 ft, the only difference is the sudden stop if you misjudge your next step.

As for your boat it is the latest and greatest technolgy the boating industry has to offer, I have admired that boat since it was debuted. as a racer, you have choosen a awesome piece of equipment. but if it is true a racer can win in anything, why didnt you try bayliner???

where is the whipped POS this year??? is it not worthy of racing anymore? not competitive??? these are all the factors i speak of when people look at budgets.

we can go back and forth all day, and all we have accomplished is wasting time at work, my opinion is still mine and yours yours!
now let me have the last word :) see you in marathon. drive safe getting there.

p.s. your boats also has 525's , LOL

Are you saying Keith's boat is an old whipped POS?

just quoted from Audacity

pete...no way your get'n the last word in bro!!!LOL...:D

a few days at the lake with a few hammers and some weight goes a long way!!!A LONG WAY.....teams like virgin, utz, donzi, teague and so on.... will tell you about the time they spend....not so much the money....

"but if it is true a racer can win in anything, why didnt you try bayliner???"...great question!...because racing is NOT JUST ABOUT winning...again, we look at this from a very professional standpoint...a quote:"“We are very excited to be a part of the Donzi racing family this year,” said Skrocki. “Not only are we excited about the new boat itself, we are thrilled to be part of the Donzi marketing machine that’s raising the visibility of this sport. Our goal is to be number one with our sponsors, number one with our promotional activities and number one across the finish line.”


my point is....i sure do hear of teams testing....but they don't have one page of documentation on the testing conducted...let alone a book....lets face it paper and pencil don't cost that much...all the data in the world doesn't mean **** without documentation.

and the boat i was in last year can come back this year and WIN with the right people behind it...110% without a doubt and do it never cracking 88 mph!

"is"...i have no idea of the condition of the boat currently....so i can not speak for it....if you would like to compare the boat we are in now to the boat i was in last year??? what would you rather be it??

i wil say this....you will not find a cheaper boat out there that could win a championship with the right people in it...does that answer your question?

I see you are being persistent in your posts, so a few days at the lake, that would be lake X right,, thats not free although they have a great resource for testing and getting the boat set up.

I agree the Donzi family is awesome, so there is something we can agree on, and glad to a part of that as well. It is great to be in such a professional setting, and around such good people.

and yes paper, pencils, fuel calculators :), and quanitive analysis of the results recorded will better prepare anyone.

I am sure in the end we all want to have a positive impact on this sport.

could be any lake...we do a lot of testing in sarasota bay...the x is great as you said, but they only work from 8-4 give or take...it's hard to get stuff done with only 10 hour work days....

"thats not free although they have a great resource for testing and getting the boat set up."...how much is it then???...most don't know because they don't ask.

if you have to ask you cant afford!! :)

Who ever said winning was cheap. In any sport its about hard work and dedacation. If you dont have that dont expect to win. Victory is earned in APBA not bought. Its no fluke the same team always run strong. Anything less blame yourself not your budget.
Mad Dog
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