496 475HP in Factory?
 

If they go that rout what will SVL,SV, and super cat lite run next year for motors? You have to trust the powers to be but we just bought all new stuff and dialed it in. Merc. has a proven motor for us in the 525 and I'm not sure I want to change. I would hate to have to run P4. What would the incentive be for us to change? I have talked to both sides today APBA and Merc. Racing and someone is not telling all the facts. Both sides have great points and hope we can share some with you all at the Factory meeting in Fort L. that Loooo Annnn is putting together. Remember nothing has been decided yet by APBA yet these are just ideas.
MD

Kirk will build us nice covers and we'll go SVL.

Seriously: If it's "475" hp instead of "500" then it's not worth the effort. Unless it is significantly less $$$$

Here's the deal...

Had a long talk with Steve Miklos yesterday. There is a two part problem: what to do for the rest of this season and what to do about next year.

Dilemma One:
For this season the Nationals are pretty much decided but the racing is non-competitive above 3rd place. Do you slow the front runners who have spent a lot of time and money doing the right thing to be running one and two? Or do you try to improve 3-9 so they can run with the big dogs (and Winnebegos)? Or do you accept that the racing will be for third place and beyond for this season, including the Worlds? There are at least two teams considering upgrading to 525s before the Worlds. One of those teams will not drive over 4000 miles to race for third place. I think it will be great to have four 29' Warlocks with HP500EFIs at 4650# racing each other at the Worlds but we will be racing for third. It will be like having F-1A and F-1B class. The issues are money, fairness, and handling.

Dilemma Two:
What about next year? Mercury "black"/Stewart Stevenson are considering putting some big money into our sport if we use some version of the 496. GMC Vortec has already done that the past couple of years and apparantly are satisfied with the classes they participate in now (they sell trucks not marine equipment). This sport needs money, more than entry fees can provide, to be credible in the racing community (TV, sponsors, fan appeal, etc.). I just want to compete on a level playing field; one engine/outdrive combination for all boats. I would have gone to 525 this year except for the huge cost. Our numbers in F-1 are down partly because of that cost and our competition is down because of the engine variants.

The 496 package offers a lot. Money from sponsors to help us and our sport, lower cost to encourage more participation, and more even competition. Apparantly they can build a 480 hp variant that will give similiar performance to the HP500EFI at less cost. Sounds like a winning combination.

We need more information via a meeting for F1/F2 in Ft. Lauderdale and maybe an early decision so teams don't needlessly upgrade to 525 for the Worlds. Despite what this may sound like, I haven't consumed the KoolAid. Just reporting what I have heard to date. I think Steve and APBA are trying to do the right thing by us and our sport. Your input is encouraged.

Allen

I have ask the 496 package be beefed up to match the 500 EFI. This protects the investment of the majority who have 500 efi's and gives a less expensive upgrade path to those wishing to join the factory classes and creates an opportunity to switch from the 500 efi if you want to take advantage of the support from S&S.

The delima now is how to take care of the three teams that spent the money to upgrade to the 525's. It's fairly clear the fleet is not coming up to the 525 level. Any thoughts?

Write the checks to me and Mark! I want to be on a fair playing field with all the F1 teams. Give Mark and myself fresh 500 EFI Motors for the rest of the season to use. I would have to run a Imco shorty lower because I am not willing to spend the money to re fiberglass and re rig the rest! Everyone had the choice to run a 525 at the start of the season and most said they didn't see any advantage to doing it after what there crew chiefs had told them. Does that make me a bad person for risking my money on something that was not going to be any better? It could have gone the other way and we would be sucking wind for the rest of the season. It was all about choices at the beginning of the year and we went Merc. 525. You all had the same choice and opted to stay with what you had!
MD:rolleyes:

Allen,
I agree with closer racing, but from what I hear last year at the Worlds it was Mark and Randy with a huge distance to 3rd and they all ran the 500 EFI, I ran the snot out of my Fountain for 2 years and was finishing and average of 5th place and we were always 3+ minutes behind, I think Mark is right if we put the 500efi back in I don't think its going to slow us up, 350lbs. is alot of wieght to add. Personally I don't care if they add 800lbs to our boat, I just want to go out and race, as long as I know we did everything we could and ran as hard as we could I don't care if we come in last. If its going to be this year lets do it know so we can test with it and not right before the worlds.
Gino

Allen,

If Steve and LLC are tring to do the right thing,why did they let it get to the point it is at now.It is crazy having a class with 4 different engine packages,and numerous outdrive setups. What did they think was going to happen? How can you run a sealed engine with 505-515 Hp against a package with 560-575 HP and expect anything to happen but what happen. The problem started and the reason it happen was money motivated.The only way LLC could slide the HP3 in was to allow the 525 package. Common scence could of told you what was going to happen,with that big a diifference in HP you have two different classes. That isn't the way F1 was designed,the concept work perfect for years. It wasn't broken and they shouldnt of done what they did. Again only my two scence but from people I've spoke to in the industry GMC bought they're way into LLC and the rest is history.The one simply question I've asked is why did LLC introduce more engine packages into a class that was designed to be regulated and to be run as a factory class. There was even talk of tring to slow the class do last year and instead the introduce a new package with 570 HP. I dont think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Simply question what where they thinging and how was it going to better the class (no answer) or at least not one that anyone wants to talk about. Question two how was this going to effect the racers? It looks to me that the racers are all on the short end of the stick. Doesnt look to me that alot of thought went into how this would effect the teams and they're wallets. Seams like it is always out of the racers wallets and in someone elses?

Frank
Koolhand

I have two cents to add to this topic.

1. I believe that when the rule book is written, it should be in stone for three years. A change that's announced in 2003 can only go into effect in 2006.

2. If racers feel they don't have a chance in hell of winning, they won't be racing for long.

3. Miklos and Alwiess think about APBA 24 hrs a day. We all know there are many variables to this deal and I'm sure they will make the best decision possible for the long term viability of the class and the sport.

4. Personally, I would add weight to the faster boats to slow them down.

Parity is about putting on a show for the camera and fans so that APBA can make a show that someone is willing to pay to watch or sponsor. The only problem is, does this type of thinking reduce technological advancement? I mean why try if you get penalized for winning. On the other hand, the small budget teams can remain competitive in an older boat.

Eany Meany Miney Moe......

are you calling me a smaller budget team?I found a dime on the ground at the circle k yesterday on a service call,that only leaves 29,999.90 to go and I'll woop your a#$.........AL

and I should be able to recycle 200 lbs of lead now also,any body know whos payin the most at the scrap yards?

As much as I feel for you Randy, But I do not see that many teams spending 31K on older boats to keep racing, if the object is to get more boats back in F1 its got to be cheaper, would you have gotten the 525 package to run in your older boat? it wouldn't't have made sense. But how many would stay if the price was more like 12 grand and everyone would be equal, One engine, One weight, One Drive.

If this is the decision they decide to go with, I thank the engines should be available to the general public, work a deal with Merc to get these as a package for new guys building new boats. Also tune these engines with the EFI headers, most all of us have a set of these pipes and go back to the standard lower. This combination would be the most cost effective and should attract more racers and isn't that the main goal?

Also, this all started to slow down the F2's so that has to be in the formula somewhere.

Generally speaking the team that does the most homework will be faster. That means test time, but that alone will not produce success. There needs to be some real thought behind the testing process. Slowing down boats that spend countless hours working on their boat getting it dialed in is a recipe for disaster and will do nothing but foster fustration on that team which will likely quit racing. Also, just handing rule exceptions to teams that are not competitive is also not the answer.
I would like to see the LLC s put some money back into it's business and product. Race teams are the product, without the racers the LLC will cease to exist. If a team has an exceptional race program the LLC should encourage that team to move up to the next class by providing incentives to that team. They could help that team secure sponsor money, they could waive entry fees for the following two years, they could provide a one time cash "grant" to that team that is payed over two years. The "smaller" boat classes need to be feeders to the larger boats.
As part of it's sponsorship agreement with someone like Merc, there should be a deal where the slower teams get a seasoned professional to help dial the boat in. Could be Thursday or Friday before the race. This will give some of the newer teams more insight and get them through the learning curve quicker. The LLC could even have a resident expert on their staff to help the teams get dialed in.
I just don't like seeing outstanding teams getting punished for their hard work. I would rather see those teams move onto the next class through incentives.
Also, like Ron said, the rules need to be set in stone. Let the current rules play out over a 3 year period.

MR V is right on. F2! the same world records exist from the same boats of 3 years ago...how are they going faster???!!....you tighten up the competition there is going to be more incidents. personally i would like them to loosen the weight rules and speed up F2.

"Also, this all started to slow down the F2's so that has to be in the formula somewhere."...."Formula" is right!

.

Hey Guys,

Even though I have been out of racing in F1 class since 2001 I feel I have some ideas and opinion on this matter to bring parity to the factory classes.

After reading this post and hearing talk of possible new motor packages,and weight re evaluated to get F1 and F2 to "closer racing" I feel there are other variables that need to be looked at by the A.P.B.A. for example :

1. bottom design : single step,twin step,no step
2. beam 7'or 8'
3. crew experience ( this is worth allot )
4. motor package and freshness ( hours )
5. boat set up : props, balance, drive height
6. weight
7. heart and desire ( very important )

I have personally been on both sides on the race coarse.
In flat water where I have been a mid-pack boat at best whether it being: weight,bottom design(no step),prop selection ?? who knows ??
To a rough water race (4-6 footers )and being a half a lap in front of the nearest second place boat and racing in a 28' footer that I know is 2-3 mph slower than the nearest boats in calm water conditions.Was I in the lead due to experience,heart and desire,boats rough water handling,set up??? Who knows ??

I feel maybe having having a third party from APBA like a Steve Miklos run all F1 and F2 boats on the same day and water conditions ( possibly Friday before the race ) with a crew member and see where all the boats really are at in speed,and acceleration.

The boats that would be 2-3-4 MPH off would benefit from reduced weight, possible motor upgrades,maybe added technicanl support from Mercruiser. Another thing is to slow the 1 or 2 of the fastest boats in the class down a bit by possibly a lower X- dimension,weight,props ( these are just ideas ).

This would allow to have the boats as equal in performance as possible on the top speed and acceleration and let the crew worry about prop selection for water conditions,boat set up,crew experience,and desire to win all come into play.

I have heard on race day so many times from teams "we are going to lay back and see what happens " I have also seen and raced teams that have run BALLS TO THE WALLS from the start to the checkered in rough water and calm water.

I do agree the class would be better with only one or two motor options instead of 4 but I am not certain the motor issue and weight are the only problem that need to be looked at.

You will have good days and bad days.

This is only my 2 cents!!

I will see you all in Ft. Lauderdale race in a few weeks when we debut our new F2 "cut down " 35' Survivor.

I look forward to seeing you all again.

Regards,

Jo - Pantera Boats :)

Mr Velocity.
YOU ARE 100% RIGHT WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID. I COULD'NT AGREE WITH YOU MORE.

I think once it is determined that all the boats in the class are all fairly close in the MPH department ( after inspection )then if a boat goes out and wins by a good margin then let it be.The team just had more experience,better set up,and boat bottom line handled better on that given day.


JO

Frame what Mr. Velocity said . Hang it on the wall.

BETTER YET.
SEND MR. V'S STATEMENT RIGHT TO APBA. OTHER THAN HAVING TITS AND ASS INVLOVED SOME HOW, IT'S THE MOST REASONABLE AND SIMPLE STATEMENT I'VE SEEN TO DATE.

JO...so the teams that work their ASSES off to get a "possible" competitive edge would be penalized and those that did nothing would get the help and a handicap? same thing goes for the manufactures...if a boat or two emerges in a class as a better design...the rest need to step up. NOT step down to the others!!!!

ps...JO how can you "cut down" the 36 to a 35 and still be legal for APBA??? so by cutting 1 foot off you get to be 125# lighter? is this a one off boat or production?? look forward to see'n ya at the races.

Hey JOE,

AS far as I am concerned I do not care if a team goes out and wins by a half a lap.I just feel going down on power in F2 and playing with some weight is not the only solution to " closer racing ".

My new 35' Survivor is coming out of a designated mold and it is a "production model".

I will see you soon.

Regards,

JO

Pantera
 

Jo..what power will be in your F2?

:cool:

525's in the Pantera

JO...i think the racing is pretty close right now. I know we don't lap boats any more. i think the competitive boats stayed and the others got weeded out. some just went to SV.

the F2 fleet has been looking forward to seeing the much talked about pantera, sonic, dragon, and outerlimts boats....

like i said, always been a fan of pantera....wish you would have been out there this year, even if you were smoking us....CYA soon JO!

The Velocity Manifesto.

Race teams are the lifeblood of a sanctioning body. Without the racers, the body will die.

The team that does the most homework will be faster.

Do not punish outstanding teams for their hard work.

Slowing down boats that spend countless hours working on their boat is a recipe for disaster. It will do nothing but foster frustration on that team, and that team will quit racing.

The LLC should encourage exceptional teams to move up to the next class.

The smaller boat classes need to be feeders to the larger boat classes.

Handing rule exceptions to teams that are not competitive is not the answer.

Rules need to be set in stone. Let the current rules play out over a 3 year period.

thanks!

Hey Joe,

I guess the F2 fleet will be seeing us in approximately 4 weeks.I look forward to racing with all of you guys soon.

Regards,

JO:)

Jo,
Good to hear your coming back out , look foward to seeing the new boat.
Gino

i am reading this as an idiot wanting to / going to race my 93 35 fountain in the p4 class popra apba in pittsburg calif,
i am new to racing boats other than blow boats.. but have race ama afm wera etc basically roadraced motorcycles for 12 years, saw very similar issues,
unfortunatly i dont see an answer here..
i am in a perdicament when it comes to racing my boat too,, by the way my number is P4 56.. remember as i come steaming by ,, ya right.. hihi
anyway in p4 its 79 mph max well what if the tide is going my way at 2 knots or 3 mph i just got dq'd? reading the rules seams u can not at any time go over 79 mph? hmmmmmmmmmmm
your thoughts on that please?
if i know myself which at 38 i think i do or at least my wife does i am going to get a boat to do all the west coast races with next year would u all recomend?
f1 f2 p classes? i am curouos the concenus on this
i learned along time ago if u gonna race hve a dedicated race ride not your family or personl ride,
any input really appreciated and sorry to change subjet

Jonas,

Really glad to hear your going to race Pittsburg. A great venue as you know.

The P class rules require you NOT to break out of you speed bracket or face getting DQed. Not likely to happen in Pittsburg as they do not check. If your a 70-79 MPH boat, run P4 and go have fun. If you go faster than 80 other than the rare occasion when the tide is going out, run P3.

Would love to have you run Factory class next year. While your at Pittsburg, talk to Brian Schenlie or RIck Hartman. Both can point you in the right direction on selecting a class. Hold off on engine selection until this is all straightened out.

Good luck.

Jim

thanks
for input and i will look up brian or rick,,
thanks have a great day!

shane, see ya there, looking forward to talkin to ya

Gotta agree 100% with those.