Hanging In The Balance
 

:ernaehrung004:Hey Guys I am looking into getting a 28 and my question is about the Twin Engine vs Single ... balance or heavy handling characteristics.

I would love to hear from Twin BBC Guys and how their boats handled...were they too heavy in the back...or only when ya launched them in Big Water?

I understand the Single with Big Power is the preference and that SBC's are a rare option.

I have read virtually every thread in the Pantera Section and it seems you all have your preferences...

I know access is non-existent with the Twin BBC's and that that also is a large factor.

Appreciate any feedback...

Thanks In Advance

Doc :drink:

Hey Doc,
It really depends on what you need twins vs single etc. But for me I like to keep things simple so a single BBC is my preference. But if you need twins I would go twin SBC's.
I had a 28' Pantera with twin SBC's and it was PERFECTLY balanced. In my opinion the twin BBC are a bit tail heavy and are not as well balance as twin SBC's.
Now another cool choice would be twin or triple Outboard's light weight and excellent power to weight ratio and AWESOME fuel economy if you go with Mercury Optimax's
(NOT Verado's).
Choices...choices....

Ditto on the small blocks.

A 28 with twin BBC's will have a small porpoise as do most all boats under 30ft with twin BBC's. Nothing the tabs can't take care of. I've never been in one with a single, but I would think the extra weight of the twin BBC's would help the ride in the rough. Loaded down with people the twins should also be much easier to plane.

I would buy a single.

If you are a lake boater who isnt worried about breakdowns as much then single is a great choice.

Mine is pretty darn fast and can run the rough no problem.

I am running a single 540 Tunnel ram 710HP and an IMCO Extreme outdrive. Idles real nice, easy to work on, change oil, plugs, fix small gremlins, etc.

If you are buying a boat with twin engines buy a bigger boat.......

I've got to agree with our Canadian friend... I love the ride and balance on my single powered 28. It's an amazing boat in every way. I have a buddy with twin BBC and I think that he indicated that the boat was a bit ass heavy.

For the older 28' Pantera, I think (2) of these would be great.

http://www.gm.com/experience/technol...LS3_Marine.pdf

It takes a high output single to push them.

The newer TS seems to be running just great with single 525HP/502.

:ernaehrung004:Thanks for the feedback - I love those LS3 Marine Motors...

Gonna have to go look at the new TS @ Ducky's ... how long does it take if you order a new boat? I would guess 700HP in a TS would get ya into the Mid to Upper 80's if they a seeing almost 80 mph with a single 525?

Just curious - So I need 700 Ponies in a nice single - to get the hull moving?

I bet a 700 with the NXT and a Box would be cool... hmmm.

Decisions - more research... :sport009:

Doc of the Bay :cool-smiley-011:

Dr. Dan, looking to make the move into a Pantera from a Donzi? I only mention this because I have had two 16s, 22 BH, and a 28ZX. Then a 28 Pantera 525efi and now a 24 Sport 496.Still love the 22 classics though!
Do yourself a favor and talk to Jo about it and what you are looking for. He is a fantastic help and they build an awesome boat!
Greg

:ernaehrung004:Pantera572 I have a 1993 22 Classic with the King Cobra - 4 years ago I dropped an HP500EFI in it, replaced all the gauges and updated the Dash... with a GPS Speedo of course and it's been a hoot ever since. (You can see pics under Dr. Dan at www.atlanticcoastdonzi.com )

A real crowd pleaser...it runs a tad over 80 with a full tank an me and my wife. The acceleration is absolutley like a Space Shuttle. I am keeping the 22 Classic.

I am looking for a little Bigger ride to play in the Chesapeake Bay in. Unfortunately - for a little while yet, I can't fly long distances to visit some of the used Merch. on the market, due to some recent Heart Mod's I had... so in the meantime...

I am going to run up and look at the new TS @ Ducky's ... I am considering the options available... with all the talk of hull efficiency and the speed and HP variables... the new hull might be the way to go instead of used? Its a ton more jing...but hey...ya can't take it with ya right?

I love the Classic Offshore lines of the 28 , it reminds me of a large 22 Classic... and from what I can see from the Owners Gallery on the Pantera site...it flies alot like the 22 Classic... which is cool... I have a fair amount of seat time in mine, the transition seems to be a good fit.:ernaehrung004:

Jo has been very responsive to my emails...and I can't remember when I had such a quick response from anyone involving used boat questions or a boats history.

Anyone know the average turnaround time on if you do order one from the Factory?

Doc of Future Pantera Runnings :drink:

I learn so much from this guy. I would have thought that the hull, x dim, balance, and whether a hull is a hook or a rocker would have also played into which boats may porpoise. Huh.

My Pantera has run 81.6 with me driving and I am new to the sport. Single 710hp. JO said it would run 85-86 if I worked my prop and shed some fuel/weight. I am sure with him driving it would be alot easier too lol. My boat is not a pleasure version however so #'s may be different than on a similarly powered pleasure version.


Jo would be able to give you a more accurate measurement for sure as far as the new hull is concerned.

If you are thinking new you need to talk to JO!!!

They are great guys and very helpful.


p.s. Are you looking for a strictly pleasure boat? If not, a twin staggered Raylar 550hp small block T/S boat might be a neat option with no cabin or half cabin and a race bolster setup to keep you safe. Not sure what your taste is but I am sure that thing would be a rocket:eek:

700NXT T/S would be really cool too (again, you are going to have to talk to Jo about how fast it would be, this package hasnt been used to power many single engines I dont think and I am pretty sure Pantera hasnt done one yet)

Anyhow best of luck, I have had a great experience owning my Pantera for one year and get many looks and compliments from guys with much bigger faster and more $$ boats!

Adam.

Ditto on Adam's comments and I too really like the way the single rides, handles, trailers and sips fuel at cruise. The best part of all is easy access to the engine for any work or maintenance.

I also have had all kinds of nice comments everywhere we go with the boat and including all my old Cig TopGun friends while they were on board for a day with us. In fact, some friends (older couple) that used to run a 47 Black Thunder with triple 700's were were very impressed with my 28 single, especially blowing through the big slop under the Blue Water bridge. It was much better than they ever expected.

Great boat, awesome manufacturer support even on a used purchase. Remember the future is all about "lighter with more efficiency" for everything ... boats/cars/bikes everything.:woohoo:

That's why you 2 run light layup no cabin, no frills boats. :party-smiley-004:

Sure 700hp on a bravo... that's a whole nother story.

My $0.02, on a new build twin 450-500hp sbc's would be nice.
A pair of nice sbc's would cost about the same as a single 700. And could run B1s, not XRs. They'd be mild compared to a 700hp NA or SC.
But not the kind of room to work on twins... but who's torquing the wrenchs... are you doc?
A pr of 450s in a no cabin/no frill 28SR should get you 90mph.
Oh yea... twin 450hp should be cheaper to insure than a 700hp single.

Mike has a backseat and a cabin!! Frills......;)

Storm is right about the SBC's. I like that idea. staggered with race cockpit. Spending other peoples money is fun. :cool:

Also a good point about who is turning the wrenches Storm. In a staggered configuration, if Jo/Pepe even thought that would work well would provide some more room for wrenching as well.

And 700hp to a bravo is sketchy but my IMCO holds up, so far. Did pretty good for previous owner as well and the boat used to have a HUGE blower motor in it and ran 97mph in salt apparently...

Prior to 1994 mostly every 28' delivered were powered by twin big blocks.There have been plenty delivered in the last couple of years with twin 6.2 MPI - 320 HP, 496 Mag , 496 HO , twin 500 EFI , and even with twin 525 EFI's.

Here in South Florida most customers opt to go with twins.Once Mercruiser started to offer the HP 450 , 500 HP, 500 EFI, back in the early to mid 90s we started to put the 28' model together with a single engine package with speeds close to 70 MPH.

I think the single and the twin engine version both work well you just trim and tab them differently.

It all depends on what you are looking for performance, if you run mainly offshore or close to shore, etc. etc.

JO

Don't forget about this option. 600 hp in 2 motors, better fuel economy than a higher hp big block, less weight than twin SBC's or BBC's (and about the same as a single), and you can buy the pair for less than $35k. :evilb: :evilb: :ernaehrung004:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/a...-pics.-358.jpg

Have you ever been in a 28 pantera with twins? On the subject of 28 pantera single vs twin - do you have anything to add or not? Of do you just aim to piss me off? Don't you have a thread dedicated to that already?

Nope.

I like twins. Thank you for asking. I like Panteras too. The combination would probably be delightful.

Nah. That will happen to you automatically without any assistance from me. My aim was to suggest to our younger folks reading along that perhaps there was more involved in porpoising than that.

Nope. I don't.

Nudge...:evilb:

Dr Dan, I can see why you are hanging on to that 22. Very sweet combination with that power. You will have some tough decisions to make on power for a new 28TS. There are some great options to choose from.
Annapolis is where I first fell in love with Donzi's when I was a kid. Great place to boat.
Keep us posted on your decisions!
Greg

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forum...?t=1001&page=5 go run and cry about it, maybe those readers will give a chit.



Dr Dan - sorry for the hijack. Fund Razor is a serious offshore moderator. So serious he has to come over here and stir chit up:rolleyes:

Easy kids...

I OWNED A TWIN 28... 502 EFIs.
What a great boat, especially for the money...
But, if I had to rewind time and do it again.. I'd much rather have been in a single.
The twin BB boat was just too tail heavy, there is no way around that..I don't care how you try to justify it....
The twins made maintenence a nightmare. My knuckles were so torn up while I owned that boat...
Do a 28 with at least a 525 with XR on ITS and it would make a great reliable, fun, and affordable boat.
If you're thinking new... the ultimate would be the 700 with NXT. Merc has a cambered skeg for the single now. Don't waste time trying to turn a maximus.. go for the #6 prop and you'll see a whole new animal.:ernaehrung004:

PLease do like has been suggested and call Jo or Pepe at the shop. You can pick up more truth in 5 minutes from a conversation with them than any of the guys on the internet can give you in 5 days...
Jo and Pepe are good people with a great product. I was proud to own the boat I did and you'd be happy with one too.
(It takes a lot to get me to say that, as I'm also a boat builder:eek:)

I'm just a member here, just like you.
But, I dropped the chip off my shoulder years ago.

Dr. Dan - good luck in the boat search.
There are a few out there, but the right one will call you to her.
Be patient, keep your eyes open, and when it's the right one - jump on it!

Hey :angry-smiley-038: ... what's this?? I have been very very busy Storm :rolleyes: ..... I just have'nt posted pics since early August .... not cushy but nice enough for me! Also the new double zipper opening tonneau with velcro roll up turned out real nice for a race entrance to the cabin, and privacy for the cabin, oh and don't forget the head! :cool:

Boat is now a real Hybrid Race/Pleasure single.....

Hey Andy you are a great know it all, now go F$%% yourself, and get your boat done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cry? My thread? Neither. Someone else's thread. I don't have a monopoly on knowing that you are a tool.
In fact, I was rather pro-Nancy on that thread.


The fact that I have the honor of keeping spam out of the classifieds on a forum has nothing to do with calling your expert comment about porpoise into question.
Yes, sorry for the hijack.
But Andy just slammed Bill hard over an offhand comment about bulkheads. Then he makes broad sweeping and incomplete comments about porpoising. Seemed only fair to use it as a teachable moment for young Andy.

On topic... having run a variety of singles and twins in the 26-30 foot range... I just really like the feeling of twins.

lol...now that you added 25lbs to the bow, you've thrown the whole COG off!
You know i'm not bashing your boats, but they are not indicative of the standard single.

btw, twin bbc may get the new 28SR TS pretty low in the stern. how you think she'd be at idle w/ a 3-4chop following sea?

I like it. I'm wanting to do the same thing with mine.

Greg, Thanks....its been a fun little boat...our first boat at that... I am considering all the qualified advice and appreciate it.

Not being a regular on OSO, I am not at all familiar with the indepth behind the scenes situations that tend to plague on line discussion boards, some more than others. So I can't comment on any of that...

I am excited about getting a 28 Sport Pantera, not gonna be doing a Race Set up but I am putting out feelers for alot of possible candidates to acquire - so we will see what the future holds.

Thanks Again for the guidance... its been an education. As I get closer to a decision, I will contact Jo directly and inquire about the specific boats I am considering.

Doc of the Bay :drink:

Nope! you forget I added a swim platform on the back .. voila' counter balance. I could use more power like almost anybody:rolleyes: .... but I am really happy at 70 without prop work and a 55 cruise with the 4 blade. I start prop work this next spring.

how can you sleep in there with all of those pillows staring at you:eek:

Sleep?? that's not what the cabin's for :evilb:

Mike, just leave it if you're happy.
Too many guys out there chasing that mph, just end up not moving at all. :( ;)

All kidding aside with the stock B1 26 the boat carries the bow really nice with all the cabin work, which did not really add much weight (more than 25 though) since it's a little plywood, carpet and West System Epoxy & biaxial taping. In fact the stock B1 makes the boat ride better than with a 28 B1 or 26 B1 factory labbed, must be the cupping. I was a little concerned about the bow weight with the finish work but all is super, plus no creaks or hull noise. :ernaehrung004:

Ha ha ha! I resemble that remark! :cool-smiley-027:

I mainly boat on large lakes and rivers.... however one thing that is a plus for me on the 28' single is that there is plenty of room in the engine compartment to work on anything that might go wrong. Plus the cost of operation is greatly reduced.

If you decide on a Pantera you will love the ride

Also, if you are not buying new, than you will be limited to what is available.

Mike you have done alot more to the cabin holy smokes!

I have a 27p Bravo 4 blade that is basically a 28 with no cup. Boat doesnt rev right with that prop and with the tunnel ram I need the revs.

For our boats the stock 26p is a great prop. I just wish I could get a few more rpm:rolleyes: My boat will only rev to 5600.

I need 5800-5900 and I think I would be running 1-2mph faster...couple that with a low fuel load and a one man run I think I could, as Jo predicted, run 85-86mph.


Mike, what HP are you running? What kind of motor?

is it a bravo or an XR?

:ernaehrung004:ANYONE EVER RUN AN IMCO Extreme SCX Drive with a Box or something similar with Big power?

Just curious how it road or flew?

Doc of HiJacked Threads & Sarcasm :drink:

I have ran our 28' model powered by twin big blocks heading straight into "real" 5-6 footers out in the ocean running 65-70 MPH on GPS with no hands on the wheel for a few minutes at a time just playing with tabs and drive trim and keeping a nice level attitude from wave to wave.I have taken out a few OSO members over the years that have seen me do it.

Yes, it will be easier to run a single engine in rough water than the twin but once you get the trim settings, your confidence, and correct props it will perform great.

Trim settings are more sensetive on the twin engine than on the single engine version.

Now with the new T.S. bottom on the SR model the speeds are going up by over 10-12% so a mild single engine has plenty of performance and the balance and handling are perfect.

JO