rounded deck on my '77', lets discuss
 

hello all. as many of you know i've bought and started to restore an old pantera. it's a '77' and the hin reads: wcw 72002 f 77 m.

i know the provenance back to the original owner (i'll be visiting with him on thursday at a christmas party). the original owner only owned it for a year or so and then the second owner had it until two months ago when i got it. the original owner drove down to the factory and trailered it back to ohio where it's been a "lake erie" boat it's whole life.

my question is this: it has a rounded deck similar to an excaliber. i cannot find any old pics of a pantera with the same deck. they all are the straight across "sport" deck or the v'ed "se" deck. i know all the hulls were " p&d" and the decks were specific to the builders but this is just odd. if i didn't know the provenance and it didn't have a wcw hin i would be convinced it was an excaliber but it's not.

Pepe, Jo? any thought on this?

thanks for help on this oddity.

have a good day all, rob. :drink:

here's a pic of the deck:

Hi Rob i Know wot you mean , i have been looking at some old pictures of P24 s and the deck on them does look very diffrent . i must say i kinda like your deck and screen , it gives the boat a smoother look . good luck with your boat regards paul

I would like to know this too..i believe that the excalibur 24 was one of the earlier 24x7 made and i have no proof of this but i think that the deck was bill farmer designed meaning that excalibur, python, pd, and maybe the early panteras used his deck.

Thats just an theory that i have - no proof of it, someone at pantera must know.

Look at the Pantera website. Shows Pantera 24 #1 (w/ volvo also) having the rounded deck also. Probably only 2 or 3 made like that...others have sport or se deck. Not sure when they changed. Pepe will know.

i was told that mine is number two. i'm thinking they made one in '75' and none in '76' and then mine in early '77'.

i'm dying to sort this out.

here's what Pepe had to say about it in my "bringing it home" thread:

That boat brings me a LOT of memories!
It seems like it was yesterday, I met Carl Wenger from the original South Florida boat trader. I believe that is Pantera #2,
the #1 was a black hull that I raced in Production class that year.
It does not get any more original than that, from the teak door, upholstery, rub rail, lifeline, cleats, and the Pantera sticker on the Target trailer!

Good luck w/ it,
rgds,
pepe @ pantera.
Last edited by JO - PANTERABOATS : 09-20-2011 at 03:04 PM. Reason: adding more info.

i just looked at the pantera site again (i've looked a bunch already) and i see what you mean by the #1 having the same deck.

i guess i was just skeptical that i really was in possession of #2. :coolcowboy:

hopefully Pepe chimes in again.

I have heard this subject come up before. Seems if the company wasn't the original, they don't want to say where it came from. This deck you have is probably the first 24X7 ever made. Excalibur, P&D, Monza, etc. all made this boat w/this deck in the early years. This is probably 2 of 2 or 2 of 3 ever made by Pantera (just estimating). Have seen the current Sport deck as early as 1977 and the SE deck as early as 1979. I have seen the current Sport deck on one other boat brand (before Pantera) that was supposed to be a Harry Schoell design for Magnum. Have never seen the SE deck on anything other that a Pantera brand. Who knows the truth? Well...in 2011 probably on a couple people.:readinghelp:

Oh yeah, I forgot, don't change a thing on this one (especially paint). Keep it original for sure. Really nice and rare! TRS, Bravo? What power?

the boat came with a volvo 280 and a small block chevy. my plan is to repower with a bbc and a bravo drive.

i'm a "purist" at heart and i'm conflicted on the bravo conversion. i do want the boat to maintain its originality but i really want to run a bravo.

i plan on a "factory" upholstery job and all original style gauges and controls.

i wanted to paint it black on the sides and transon like the #1 boat but now i'm thinking i should adhere to the original color scheme.

oh boy, this is going to take some thought! :confused:

I wouldnt worry about originality. It is a boat and it is meant to be used and upgraded.

I would stick with 'period correct' if you like the classic look if thats the style you like but I wouldnt worry about modern power or drivetrain. Why run old stuff and have it break?

Enjoy the boat I really enjoy these types of threads on here it is the reason I look on this site every morning while having my coffee!

VC, restomod.
I think it looks great as it is.
But i would definitely throw some new reliable power and a B1 on there. Maybe a nice built 502 or 510... 550hp+ w/ SM exhaust. Would sound nice too.

that's the tentative plan......500ish cubic inches, ( 502, 496 stroker, 510 or the like). i'm thinking a horsepower per cubic inch or so of reliable bbc power would be attainable without any really exotic parts or machine work.

i have a complete bravo 1 in a 1.65 ratio with all the associated hardware. (gimble assembly, pump, rams etc....) it has almost no time on it and it is in mint condition.

i haven't sold the volvo yet but it is for sale and i have someone interested. i'm just afraid of not being a good steward to this boat as i feel a certain responsibility to do it "justice" because of its place in pantera history.

thanks for all the input guys!

have a good night, rob.

"i have a complete bravo 1 in a 1.65 ratio with all the associated hardware."
Not that this wont work, but most of us are running 1.5 ratio, so it'll make dialing it in a bit tougher w/o equal comparisons.

yeah, i know a 1.5 is more common but a 1.65 will work with the right prop.

i bought the whole shooting match for a "song" as a "take off'". if i was to order a new one i would have ordered a 1.5.

How hard is it to have it changed?
Would you be better off w/ a smaller prop running higher rpms?

i'm wondering about that myself. i guess the main thing would be to make sure we "cam" the engine to work in the rpm range we will be operating in.

i wonder how big a difference i will see between the 1.5 and the 1.65 as far as prop shaft rpm goes.

Don't worry about engine design, you will build the engine with the rpm range you want it to run regardless of the drive ratio.
If you plan on using a 502 at around 500hp you will be able to turn a 28" prop at 1.65ratio or a 26" prop at 1.5 ratio for very similar speeds but each blade on a 28" prop pushes through less water (distance) per revolution to go farther therefore a small amount of less drag and will yield a small but measurable increase in top speed. 1.65 drive will increase the torque at the prop shaft and shaft bearings, with an inexperienced operator you could see more service issues, this is why most manufacturers use the 1.5 or 1.32 as standard with all OEM applications. A small manufacturer(Formula) supplied most all 292 and 353 models with 1.65 drives because of the performance gains afforded by this, my guess is they did some substantial testing. I think you will be as good or most likely better with a 1.65 unless you go huge on the motor like a blown 572" 1000+hp monster

thanks for the info ironman! my engine will be an aluminum head, 9.5 to 1 or 10 to 1 compression, naturally aspirated pump gas bbc.

do you think a 3 blade or a 4 blade prop is better for me? ( i know this is a loaded question but, in general )

thursday night i met the original owner of my boat at a christmas party. he's still good friends with the gentleman i bought the boat from. he only owned it for a year and his wife mandated that he sell it after a high speed turn when she was nearly ejected. :eek:

i gathered some really cool info from talking with him for an hour or two.

some things he told me:

he met pepe through a boat trader news letter where pepe had the number 1 made black and white boat listed for sale.

he tried to buy the first boat but pepe had just sold it when he called on it.

pepe told him he had number two in the works and it would be ready for sale in a couple months.

my boat was going to be a red white and blue color scheme in celebration of the bicentenial but carl (the first owner) didn't want a red white and blue boat so he asked pepe to do the all white with red white and black interior.

when he went to miami to see the hull and work out the deal with pepe, he met him in a neighborhood where the boat was being built in a two car garage (pre 188 st.). some guys who were unable to speak english were there working on the boat and the only thing they understood was "pepe".

when he picked up the boat a few months later he sea tested it with pepe.

my boat made a couple of trips back to florida over the years.

the cost new was 8,900 with the target trailer.

there was no official option list. pepe built the boat for carl as discussed over drinks.

carl also has met don aranow and reggie fountain in the early days as he had a side business of transporting sport boats back to ohio. he said reggie was a bit of a dick but aranow was really cool. (when aranow owned apache he asked him for a t-shirt upon picking up a boat and don gave him a stack of shirts for his buddies. later, he went to fountain to pick up a 41 foot boat and asked reggie for a shirt. reggie told him it would be 15 bucks and carl told him, and this is a direct quote, "shove it up your ass"!)

carl is a real cool, surley old goat and a wealth of info regarding 70's and 80's off shore boats.

Sounds about right. aronow "cool" and reggie "dick"...I like it!

Great history on #2 !!!!!!!!

Depends on engine displacement and X dim. 17.5 or higher liked 4 blade best. 17 - 17.5 3 or 4 work well, slight nod to the 3 for top end but a labbed 4 will put up same numbers with better mid, planing and acceleration. 454's ran better with 3's 502 had torque to turn 4's or 3's (i know i just answered your question with a question but in general Mirage plus 25-27 would be close)

Great history you found on your Pantera, people don't just make up that kind of stuff.

Sorry about the question off topic but Ironman, on a 28 with 425hp 454's now turning 15 3/8 by 26 4 blade props at 42-4300 and having a porpois problem what would dropping to 17 1/2 by 22 4 blades do? Would that allow my rpm to go up or would the diameter be to big? Also would they help to carry the bow to stop the porpoising? The drives are number III's with 1.33 gears.

put blowers on it and power through the hop

thanks ironman! i'm planning on a 17 inch x as per pepe and jo's recommendation for a 24 7 hull.

you are right. you cannot make up the stuff these guys lived through and experienced. it was awesome talking to some old school off shore guys!

another thing the original owner told me was that the side nav lights were not originally on the boat when it was delivered. apparently, pepe caught some **** from the coast guard about the lighting and was mandated to add the side nav lights.

pepe mailed the original owner the nav lights for the port and starboard sides and they were then installed some time later.

I think the rule of thumb is 200rpm per inch of pitch and 100 rpm per inch of diameter roughly, soooo you should be at about 800 rpms up on the pitch then lose about 200 on the larger diameter that still puts the 454's a little short or your most likely goal of 52 - 5400rpm As far as porpising, generally the bigger diam will help and more prop rpm will help. You are turning them out right??

Nice thing too about the 17 - 17.25 is we all know the standard water pickups work well there. Here are some pictures of my old 24 set at just below 18, I had an external water pickup already so the intakes above the waterline did not matter.

That looks familiar.

It should, Found the cool drive height pictures and wanted to share them. How is it coming along?

It's temporarily "on hold". Made a cross-country move, and then had a serious medical issue in July that's slowing me down.
She's safe in the garage though, right next to my truck.