Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Hi to all you lucky ******** !

I am hoping to join your ranks as an offshore speedmeister...but I could use a little help ! I was really happy to see the newbies here like me are treated with so much patience and respect ! I hope to become a regular contibutor in the years to come.

I have just given a dealer a verbal commitment to purchase a 1986 Panther for 15,000 USD. It is 800 miles away and I have only seen pictures. It has twin BBC's but had the drives stolen. I assumed they were Bravos but just found out they are Alphas ! I had no idea alpha drives would handle Big Block torque but he has found some freshly rebuilt Alphas that will come with the purchase. The engines apparantly have 150hrs on them and were running very well. He does not know about mods on them but they appear to have Demon carbs and aluminum intakes in the pictures. I plan on pulling them and inspecting them over the winter. At the least I will be refurbishing the heads and replacing the valvetrain. The hull is apparantly in great shape as are the stringers according to the dealer. The interior looks worn and dirty but the Captain's console looks visually pretty good. It comes with a triple axle trailer with new tires. I was told it was a freshwater only boat.

I guess my questions are , does this sound like a fair deal based on the limited info I have described here or is it overpriced ? Is an Alpha drive capable of handling 330 + horsepower ? Does anyone have a similar Panther that can give me some realistic speed expectations. I would like to build the existing motors to around 400hp but may be limited if you folks think the Alphas are too weak.

I have been a boat guy all my life but until now have left the performance boats to the Thousand Islands Millionaires ! I bought new only until last year when I purchased a 94 28 Wellcraft Excel family cruiser. I built a 400hp stroker smallblock for the Volvo SX drive and had a great summer on lake Ontario with no problems. I hope I am not biting off more than I can chew with this unit but any advise will be GREATLY appreciated !
Thank-you Kindly and I am looking forward to seeing more than just your transoms next summer ! :drink:

Rob in Eastern Lake Ontario region

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

have a specialist check for rot before you make that 800 mile trip. I just replaced all the wood in my "killer deal". It aint no fun :(

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Rob, I would not buy a big heavy boat with Alphas - period! That boat should have had TRS drives back then, can't imagine why only the Alphas to begin with. Like JH said, old boats that sound like killer deals usually do the killing on your wallet. As far as building the motors, which would absolutely require the conversion to B1 or TRS = transom work, its probably not going to touch 75mph. I'd keep looking but if you have a link to the brokers web site or post pictures of the boat (you'll have to pay for membership- its worth every penny) and don't be surprised if someone knows the boat and you'll get details.

oh ya, the Alphas weren't stolen, they were either destroyed the first time the boat caught some air or they jumped off the transom and ran away!
Good luck,

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

check out my buddies scarab.nice older boat.he also has a 38 http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-10772.html

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Thanks Guys !

You confirmed my thoughts about Alphas mounted on a performance boat of this size. I was told by the seller that in the 80's it was not unusual to find alphas mounted on these boats. Has anyone ever heard of a OEM equipped Panther with BBC's and alpha drives ?

There is no question that if I buy this unit than I will be upgrading the drives but I have some questions.

If it is an alpha set-up than do I have to recut the transom to house a B1 or TRS ?

Does a B1 have the same upper as a TRS ?

Is a TRS a more robust set-up than a B1 and what speed advantage does it provide ?

Is the Panther a good performance hull for durability and speed ?

Based on the good info from you guys I am now going to renegotiate this deal minus the rebuilt drives and see what the price is with just the engines and transom mounts that already exist. I really like the 79 in New York but I live in Western Canada which is 3000 miles from there. The Panther is located in Kelowna B.C. which is 400 miles one way. I am going there next week anyway with my three little boys for a family vacation and a business meeting with some B.C. clients . The Broker in Kelowna is actually a used car dealer whom purchases boats as well as cars for resale into the Canadian Market. My plan is to refurbish this unit over the winter months in my shop and then haul it down to my summer place near Kingston Ont. next Spring. I purchased a cruiser (and tow vehicle) from him last year and it was a good buy. He was completely honest with me, and my kids and I had a great time restoring the last boat we got from him. This Panther was probably aquired through an auction house as a repo.

I have purchased a VIP membership here as suggested, and will try and post some pictures of the boat this evening.

I am really hoping that this boat can be the first performance boat I buy, but will stick to the advice I recieve from those that have" been there done that" (and are still paying for it) !

To sum up this long winded post my main questions are:

- Would the alphas survive some medium speed family cruising for the remaider of this season or is it just wishfull thinking ?

-How much cabbage to convert to a more suitable drive ?

- What should I look for while inspecting the hull and existing rigging when I inspect this boat ? I was told that it has been assessed by a marine expert and checks out excellent...

Thanks very much for your help and I will return the favour by posting updates and photos as we refurbish our first offshore performance boat.

Rob

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Rob, transom work for either drive answer is yes. B1 same upper as a TRS? - no. Your question Bravo verses TRS has been debated a zillion times here in last few years, I say like most choose B1 ( remember TRS needs a trans also). Speed diff? I doubt. Panther good performance boat? Its a heavy 30ft boat so it'll do a good job crushing waves but I wouldn't spend a lot trying for speed(I had a Formula 311, similar story) Will Alphas hold up for a season? yes going very slow. Hammering the sticks out of the hole would almost destoy them though. No idea on the cost of conversion, I'd guess $5k with used drives. I'll assume the person that told you the boat was excellent per a "marine expert" has a vested interest in the sale - its hard to imagine an 86 without something notably wrong.

Now my qualifications - I am a salesman not a mechanic, just a guy that breaks everything I own so I'm experienced (just wait til you see the bill to rebuild a blown B1 :eek: ) sold my 311 last year and always looking for a good deal and my gut feeling would be to pass on a boat that old that needs undetermined amount of $ to make the way you want. Slowoutboard's friends boat is a good indicator (slowoutboard its a 30 not a 38! :D ) of whats out there for the $. Call his buddy and offer him 10k per a good survey (do not buy an old boat without one!!!), the distance would no longer be a hindrance, you could have delivered.

Consider what you'd spend on this prospective boat + transom glass work + cost of Bravos (not cheap!) = a lot more than you'd ever get back for it the next day. Pass on it unless less than 10k.

Just remember opinions, asses and elbows - we all have em!

Good boat hunting...

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Here are some pics of the Panther... if this works...

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Some more....does this boat look familiar to anyone ? It looks like it says "Denver Harbour H****ton Texas " ? I thought it said Houston at first but it looks like too many letters ? I was also told she was a fresh water boat...Hmmm.....

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Thanks for the advice CMG,

I certainly appreciate and agree with you on all your comments now that you all so kindly educated me on the Alphas' unsuitability for the weight of this boat. :( I will be leaving tomorrow for our vacation and we should be at the boat on Tues. I will have a close look and if it looks to be sound of structure to my untrained eyes ,I will hire a local surveyor to assess the condition of the hull, stringers and rigging . I think he will sell it for under 10,000 without the drives and If that is the case I will try and get a firm price for rebuilt Bravo's and all the parts required for an Alpha/Bravo swap. Does anyone know of a posting here or resource for instructions on retrofitting the transom for a Bravo drive install ? As far as my abilities ,I am an engineer whom designs and manufactures 500+hp deisel tree mulchers and I rebuild muscle cars for a hobby. Not exactly a marine mechanic but I know my limitations. When it comes time to tackle a new project I won't attempt it until I am certain I have the info required to sucessfully finish the job. Websites such as Offshore Only are a fantastic resource for DIY guys like me since half the fun for us is in the" journey from the dealers lot to the lake". I just don't want to start this trip without any gas in the tank ! :rolleyes:

Thanks,
Rob

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

DO NOT BUY A 454/Alpha combination just not worth the hassle it migh thold up it might not. You'll have to baby it and it will always be a concern at your current power level, don;t even think about upgrades.

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Rob, I wouldnt have anything to do with this vessel unless you have alot off stupid money to throw at it. I would certainly have it surveyed, I think youll find out its not worth anywhere what theyre asking. I own a 79 sport 300 and its nothing but a money pit. I am anal about my stuff and want it to perform to my expectations. It runs right at 90mph and we use trs drives with very little breakage and each motor at 700hp. As i write this the boat is in for a complete restring and bulkhead rebuild. Dont buy that boat wiyhout a survey. Brian

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Changing the alpha to bravo is simple....only a matter of drilling two hole's in the transom and getting all the Bravo stuff.....they may sit lower in the water then where they should be for optimal speed and performance but you could always go with shortie lowers to get that back :)

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

the conversion itself is easy I did it on my 330/alpha boat. HOWEVER it was a major pain in the ass. Yes at its core its just drilling 2 holes BUT to drill those hole syou'll have to pull both your engines and unbolt all the old stuff (20 year old hardware has a tendancy to rust together) install the new transom brackets drop both motors and re-hang the drives. You'll be able to sell the alphas for afew bucks and it won;t cost you too much out of pocket in the end if you can do the work yourself, but you'll need either a gantry or a forklift to pull the engines AND when you have the engine compartment emptied you'll of course find other stuff that needs work and that will cost you some additional $$$$.


Find a bravo boat and don't take on the headache of the alpha boat. I did it and wish I had known better in the begining.

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

look at wiring and the cables :eek: They have been all pulled out ,that look like prob also..

I would pass

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

The carbs are or apperar to be edelbrock!Looks like there is a bent trim ram on the left side for the drive!Are your sure they are big blocks?Seems like alot of room in the middle between the engines even with the stock manifolds!The water hose from the circulation pump to the t housing seems shorter than a big block hose!I had one of these boats once and it was a great boat,bought it cheap but was always working on it till the day i sold it but to me that was all part of the fun of ownership!The hull itself does work well on the panther!Mine had 400 hrs small blocks with trs drives that do use a trany,alpha and bravo do not have a trans!Mine would run about 75 with 21p labbed cleavers!At 15k youve got to expect to spend some extra money on it but youd do the same if the boat was 100k or 200k so if your handy under the hood so to speak,I would haggle the seller and get it as cheap as you can but still go for it !

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

The carbs are or appear to be edelbrock!Looks like there is a bent trim ram on the left side for the drive!Are your sure they are big blocks?Seems like alot of room in the middle between the engines even with the stock manifolds!The water hose from the circulation pump to the t housing seems shorter than a big block hose!I had one of these boats once and it was a great boat,bought it cheap but was always working on it till the day i sold it but to me that was all part of the fun of ownership!The hull itself does work well on the panther!Mine had 400 hrs small blocks with trs drives that do use a trany,alpha and bravo do not have a trans!Mine would run about 75 with 21p labbed cleavers!At 15k youve got to expect to spend some extra money on it but youd do the same if the boat was 100k or 200k so if your handy under the hood so to speak,I would haggle the seller and get it as cheap as you can but still go for it !

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Yah I'm looking at paying around 10,000 and adding suitable drives and doing all the labour in my spare time. I have contracted a marine surveyor to inspect the structure and if it comes back with a clean bill of health I will be the new owner. If not I will be looking for another project boat with a sound hull. I believe these boats in premium condition sell for around 20,000 so that gives me a budget of 10,000 to find and install rebuilt drives and other odds and ends it may require. I already have plenty of HP BBC internals including a forged crank and 2 sets of 781 freshly ported heads. (they will support 550+ hp)

I don't think 10,000 would be too much for this boat if it surveys ok :rolleyes: .

Rob

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Trust me if you can buy a mint one for $20k do it, you will blow way more than 10k bringing it up to spec, what ever you think it's going to cost you take that number and double it and then add some, not trying to be negative, but have been down this path before, it's so much easier to buy something someone else has dumped a wad of cash on.

Good Luck! (from a another B.C boater!)

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Rob,

I concure with the previous comment... You are better off spending a bit more up front rather than dealing with the hassels of a older boat requiring numerous upgrades ie money pit. It's all about what you will enjoy the most and keep in mind resale because like most of us you will continue to go bigger and faster. The best of luck with your purchase.

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Thanks everyone,

I still havn't left for BC to look at the boat ! I will be leaving as soon as my other meeting out there is confirmed. Tomorrow I will have a survey and will get the report on the hull and stringers etc. I have also found some take-out Bravo drives from a local boat. They only have 62 and 59 hrs on them and are from a Donzi that is getting big power and some racing drives. I can buy them both complete for 6000 including an inspection from the Merc dealer here. It will now depend on the survey....

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

I would say 10 k is a good price but its still to much, I would look around and see what else is out there its going to be along off season for a lot of boaters. there will be deals.

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Robscarab, what did you find out about the boat? Did you buy it?

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

I purchased MY FLOWER POT scarab 400 for 18,000 USD....

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Martin, I checked out your site. I have never worked on I/O's before. I have an 1986 21 ft checkmate enchanter. Its a true gem, I am sure you would appreciate the conditon of her. I get asked all the time if its brand new. Anyway, I re did the floor, and stringers and balsa blocks in her belly. I have never done a transom though and I am a bit nervous. Had a dream last night the g/f and I were jetting down the bay and i looked down to see my engines and outdrives pass me up the center of the boat...got a bit of anxiety over it..There so many wires, and lines, and wires to move...and im worried about getting THose back to the proper places...not the glassing, im pretty proficient in it, ha and im gonna leave the spelling error do to the hour..

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Well guys,

Thanks for all the advice- the boat does have stringer damage so I passed on her. Someone else bought it and now is trying to sell...hmmm I wonder why ? Anyway if anyone knows of a good deal on a fast mover similar to the Scarab I discussed in this thread let me know !

Thanks all,
Rob

Thanks !

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

I don't know what size you have your heart set on but I know where there is a really clean 26 Nova SST , with twin SBC's and Bravo's.

Now the thing with this boat is it runs 89-90mph. They are 400 something CI, best of everything. boat has been sitting for years, I think it can be had for high teen's maybe $20,000. It's all white, actually is a really sharp looking boat.

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

link ? pictures?

Re: Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?
 

Here is a link for that boat. I've been told that it can be had for a lot less that the price asked.

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/4/85720174.htm


A friend actually radared the boat several years ago , and it went 89 and some change. So the speed is legit.