We want some input for the Manufactors class. What do you think about P4,and P5 boats having to be 30 ft and under? Tring to level the playing field in those class,and not have 26,27,28ft boats racing against 38 ft twin engine boats.
LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK???

Frank
"Koolhand"

YES YES YES If this rule was in place we would run some SBI races.

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes

Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!! P is a bracket racing class, if you do not like that, run a spec class F2, F1, SV, SVL, and whatever other classes they have in SBI, APBA or OSS.

Change the run what you brung classes and you may? lose boats.........

very tru jkk.....its understandable that a 38 with twins will have the advantage in big water races over a 28-30 single screw but visa versa in calm water...but remember one thing the P classes are bracket racing...if u go adding rules such as length and no. of engine limits to a class then it will no longer remain speed bracket racing aswell as you will see a major drop in the amount of boats fitting into those classes...just my opinion
Stroker

I dont necessarily agree.
We already have a size limit on P-5. (in OPA and APBA)
If you take the faster 28s -30s and bump them to P-4, you'll have more exciting and evenly matched competition. P-3 could be 30 feet and up twin screw and 80 mph max.

the rules in P-class will never suit everyone. Like Stroker says, in calmer waters, the smaller boats will be much closer to the larger boats. As much as I'de like to see a size and engine limit on P-4, I say leave it alone.

well said brucie u got what i was tryin to say across!!!!

I don't necessarly agree that big boats are at a disadvantage in calm waters..... most of them have big power in them and can usually accelerate just as well. Examples: Cambridge P3 Cancun Cantina 38' Vs Wazzup 32'....Cantina was in front for half the race and then finished a close second. P4 Typhoon 27' vs The Delicate Sound of Thunder 38'...D.S.O.F. won. P5 Sonic Boom 28' Vs Not guilty 23'.... not even close.
Being smaller in calm water does not alway mean you have an advantage.

Appreciate all of the input. Positive input like this can only benefit the sport.

Just one clarification, I noticed that some of you have mentioned twin engines, our objective is the length of the boat, not the engines. Twin engines would be permitted as long as they meet the bracket speed limit in its class.

Now that this is a payout/national class our intention is to implement rules that will make each class more competitive.

The only way this will happen is by your voice, so please be heard.


Thanks
Frank
"Koolhand"

Frank,
I agree with the proposed change.

It is a joke that guys can take F2 boats made to run close to 90 and slow them down to 79.9 and think they are running on an even playing field.

Take a good look at APBA last season, the best finish any single engine boat had was 2nd place (one race, Scott Utah's Just Pray). The bigger boats with big power and small props made all of the single engine "affordable" boats non-competitive.

Now with that stated, out west we ran against two 30+ footers with twin engines and beat them both our our 24' Reindl. One of the boats was a stock 35 Foutain with 502's (very heavy boat with interior still in place) and the other was a 42' Apache with big blown engines (top speed was 75, this boat was a tank). So it can be done, although the Apache would have killed us in rough water.

The fact that Sonic Racing was allowed to race P4 with a boat that was an F2 boat the prior year was almost offensive. While I harbor no hard feeling toward them, as they were but playing within the rules, it was not exactly in the spirit of a "run what you brung class", as their boat was capable of much much more.

My .02.

Rick

I also like the idea of the length limit.

Q-Ball, here's a little lesson in racing. Typhoon(White Boat) MD. race, on my ass the entire race and I'm talking about 5-10 feet tops as Mission Impossible was ahead of me for 4 laps(A P5 Boat) until they broke and Simply Awesome right on my ass. Lets go to Point Plesant, Typhoon (Black Boat) 1/2 lap lead, That's 21/4 mile lead on the 38' twin engine condo in 3-4 foot seas or how about SuperBoat, John lead 90% of the Bricktown race in 7-8 foot seas as well as Jesse James????????????????How about The Wild Card Boyz kicking my ass in Bricktown in a 24' boat with 7-8 foot seas. I'll do almost anything they ask but remember..."On Any Given Sunday" Your gonna Win or Your Gonna Loose. I think it's all in the turns, everyone would catch me on the straights but in the turns Kevin would put his arm in the water and that was it....we were gone, but MOST of all it's who stays Together and finishes the race which we had a problem doing last year as we were ALWAYS balls out trying to catch the other P4 boats. Hey Q-Ball, thats a funny one...We were balls out trying to catch ALL THE SMALLER BOATS. I guess the theory of 38' twin engine vs 28 single engine doesn't really work... unless you've built your 38' to do 120 mph which is CHEATING. Cheating is NOT in my vocabulary, sticking an ice pick in your eyes is but not cheating. So I'll put it to you this way Frankie, whatever is good for the sport and all the guy's(and Ladies) is fine with me. Augie

Q-Ball

The smaller boat will only prevail in calm water if its top speed is equal to or greater than its larger competitor. It has a greater ability to cut the turns and accelerate out of them. All this means nothing if the larger boat is really capable of more speed and uses it in the calm water.

Until you can police top speed, you'll never level the playing field.

Lets use Typhoon vs. D S O T as example. the 38 is cabable of 80+ and so is the Kryp. If the Kryp gets a good start and maintains speed through the turns, Theres no reason why he shouldnt win over the 38 in calm seas.

I dont think we would lose boats with a rule change, I think we would gain. Because many faster P-5 boats would move up with boats of the same size and open the door for slower smaller P-5s that may not have come out . And many smaller faster boats like a batboat would come out to race P-4, when they may have sat out if they had to compete with a 38 in big water.

So, Im actually for the rule change, but how does that affect the P-3, P-2 and P-1 classes?

i would love to see the change! i think it would bring out more boats. because everything in p5 now would move up. opening up for the smaller one like our old baja.

Augie,

for the sake of not getting into an argument, you really cant make those comparisons. The boats you mentioned, including mine are over powered and we all know it. The Typhoon boat, while 10 feet shorter can only compete with you in big water because they have tons of experience and they can run that boat to the edge. They still have to work very hard to keep up with you but they do it. Mission Impoossible and Wild card are both much faster than your boat, and smaller. They need the extra power to keep up with you in big water. They only beat you in the brick race because you had kill switch problems. Until you compare apples to apples, you'll never know where you would finish. GPS will help but will not cure the problem. I think most of the faster P-5 boats will gladly move up as long as they did not have to compete with your battleship and others like it. Theres no way a 75 - 80mph 26- 30 footer will compete with a 80+ mph 38 in big water. thats a fact.

Augie, I'm not throwing stones.... I'm just trying to get people to stop thinking with the mentality that a smaller boat has an advantage in calm water when they don't...

My opinion as an SBI racer, P 5 could definetly use a length limit. The twin engine Vrs. single engine will always be an issue. One thing everyone is overlooking, is the fact that in order to be in the game you have to finish the game. We all know about breakdowns, The twins have double everything to keep together for an entire race, quite a handycapper. Typhoon, merc stock power, vrs DSOT, twin 650 custom power on bravos, Hmmmmmmmm. Where are the odds, you would have to bet on Typhoon. The worlds Wazzup twins vrs that Italian Diesel. single dusted me watch the video. Bracket Racing is what it is. Build your boat to run at the limit of your class, forget the BS and lets just go have a good time. Never been to an SBI race that wasn't a blast.

You have to start with top speed best setup. Propping down is BS. Run your boat in the class it should be in. We all know how fast our boats are and pretty much how fast other boats are. The guys that are running theold F2 boats in P classes are the ones really balling up the little guys. Unfortunatly I think alot of that was done to please the manufacturer who was trying to promote a new class. (Like we need another) Trust me I got hosed by 2 38's cutting my off at the start in St Pete. And by a 37 ALL year. Sack up and run your boat in the right class.

You all make some great points. Having raced much of last season in P-4, racing a 26' Corsa, (previous Factory 1 and "A" class boat) with a GM Vortec HP3. Having "been there done that" I'd like to throw my .02 in here...
Like it or not, The outlaw classes started out as "local" class. It was intended to be an entry level series to allow folks to "run what ya brung" in order to get a taste of racing with whatever boat they currently owned or ran. Of course, over the last few seasons these classes have evolved into larger classes with boats that have been built specifically for a respective bracket. Some of the things I learned in P-4 last year were that a large twin can, and will out accelerate a smaller single. A smaller single can and will turn inside of a large twin in a sharp turn in calm water. This is possible the most important point... A large twin will destroy a small single in rough water, BUT, top speeds being equal, a small single will still only run with a large twin in calm water at best. Remember, we all have a speed limit.
Last year was my first year in the throttleman seat with a new driver. Fortunately we both learned quickly and raced well together, but there was no way we were going to beat the 38 Sonic. While it may have been frustrating, it was still well within the rules and we congratulated the Sonic team as well as the 38 supercharged TopGun each and every time they won.
To address another point Augie made, we raced in some small but nasty washing machine slop in Milwaukee. While we watched the supercharged Sound of Thunder and F-2 Sonic battle it out just in front of us, we also walked away from a number of others with more power AND motors, including a 28 Donzi with Pro Charged twins, an older "A" class boat with twin outboards, and a few other highly respectable teams. On the last lap, Augie had a mechanical failure which put us in second place. Like Smitty pointed out, "breakdowns" are much more likely to be a factor when you run hi stress motors. The last lap is the one that counts, and it's all part of the game.
A few years ago, the APBA P class racers agreed to give up prize money in exchange for much lower, (affordable) entry fees and limited TV. It's cheap racing, and it's fun. But, if you try to "fix" outlaw P classes, you stand the chance of eliminating as many boats as you might gain. Maybe if A and B classes would have survived, this would not have been an issue, but B class disappeared and A class is hanging on by a thread.
I realize my position is not a popular one, but as far as APBA is concerned, Think of the Outlaw Performance classes as feeder classes to the Pro series.

Right on, Ryan your 24 has to run against some high hp sleds, yet you are out thier race after race, the competition will have a force to reckon with once your new boat is done. it will be cool to see you and mark run on a even playing field. I also look at some of the otherclasses where former f-2 boats dominate thier field, and then post outragous claims in thier ads, i like what opa has done 5 classes, period. cat and vees it doenst matter. the best of the day wins.

Why stop w/ hull length????
We could also limit hull type, hull weight, the drive model used, X-dimension, limit # of prop blades, etc.....
Then after all that, we could put fuel restrictors on the winning boats............................................

We already have a Bat boat class....

I have my 28 Pantera, So it will be balls to the wall in the rough to keep up with the bigger boats, however I choose this, if the rules change better for me, but for now it will be fun to play with Augie and the rest of the bigger boats.

P4-12 SBI

Hey Gordo, how are you? Good Points. The only thing is I don't have supercharged motors and as it turned out you beat us in Milwaukee." On Any Given Sunday", ...Q-Ball, there are no stones and no problems but I just wanted to make a point.........Very Good Points Also Chief....Ryan, glad I wasn't in St.Pete's , I'd have a complex now. Guy's whatever ya wanna do.

My Pantera,
If you are running 83 MPH, that would make you a P3 boat, now you get to run against 38's such as "Wanted", "Dry Martini, "Bad Boyz" "Executioner" and of course the 32' "Wazzup"

Robert G. atleast I`m honest here I know alot of boats out there running faster than me. SBI is average speed is 69.9 not top speed. Sure I`ll set my boat to run 79 if I want to but this is not the rule. So Robert G. what class are you racing in.

Augie,
Doin good! Hope you are as well.
Sorry I mis-typed concerning your motors. I knew you had some pretty big power, bit didn't know you wasn't supercharged. My bad.
As for Milwaukee, Let's face it. You had us beat. The fact that we came out ahead of you was just our racing luck. Had to have been a heartbreaker for you guys, but as they say, that's racing.
Something else y'all might think of concerning lenght limitations...
Not long ago there was a 32' Sunsation with a single HP500 built for Factory 1 racing. Beautiful boat that ran great for what it was, but it was just too much boat for 1 motor and with empty tanks was an upper 70mph boat at best! So, if this boat showed up to race in P-4, would you send him away even though many of the smaller single P-4's could beat this boat in most water conditions?

Lets RACE.............

I like the Sonic racers and I like Sonic boats, and without being a jerk, if it is possible with this next statement. That boat had no business in F2 ever the speeds have been to fast for it, we all lapped that boat every race, without a doubt, it is and has always been a P boat at best........So indicating it was ever an F2 boat insults F2, not P class and it would suck if those guys did not have a class to race that boat in

Don't You Think!!!!!!!?

Someone mentioned, GPS is not the answer, Well I didn't realize most of the races DO NOT have them, use GPS and I think you guys will at least be much happier, break out and DQ rules do work, not average speeds.

Good luck guys, keep P class simple, don't let it get into the constant rule changing, money spending, spec classes, trust me you won't like what you end up with.

Pantera,
I guess the question should be: Where do you draw the line? If a 100 MPH boat wants to race in P4, would that be OK assuming he won't average over 69.9?
I think this clearly defines the problems with "Bracket racing".
Hopefully running P5 again.
I think it would also help if all organizations had the same bracketing rules-whether its top speed or an average speed.