Hi,

I am looking for opinions from people here that have owned boats around 25 feet that were built to handle good sized chop, which I will suggest is around 3 feet.

I live out in the Bay area in California, but I go boating in Melbourne, Australia. I know that doesn't make much sense, but that's about it.

San Francisco and Melbourne have similar conditions. San Francisco is 38 degrees North. Melbourne is 38 degrees South. Both places are on bays, although Melbourne's bay is much larger - 35 miles across. Often the breeze in the morning is light. In Melbourne, we invariably have a cold Southerly (Southern hemisphere) sea breeze kick in around 2pm, with 15-20 knots, often a lot more. In the Bay area, the wind is always cold - even in the Summer (From the North), and they also often get 15-20 knots. So in both places, you want a boat with some protection from the elements. High sides. Not an open, Lake Havasu type cockpit. With the exception of channels, both bays are shallow - around 30 feet. So the bay chop can be steep. Not ocean going chop or swells, but rough nonetheless.

We have a manufacturer out there in Melbourne who has been making Bay boats for 40+ years based upon Bertram designs that have a 21+ degree deadrise with chines that get through the chop really well. They are not fast, but they will pound through it. I have an old 23 footer open cockpit deck boat from the 80's called a Caribbean 23, which is 8 feet wide (Max legal trailerable in Oz) with a simple 230hp Mercruiser and it handles the chop amazingly well.

The other day I went for a ride on a new Regal 26 footer with a 300hp Volvo duo prop which was 5000lbs (2000lbs heavier than my 23 footer) and the owner said it had a 21 degree V but in 15 knot lake Michigan chop, it wasn't nearly the ride I was expecting. Very nicely finished and I must admit, once we got into the calmer waters, I was extremely impressed at how the thing did in the high 40's - something he attributed to the chine design where the hull steps up and gets out of the water. With my hull, quietly cutting through the chop on the plane at 2800rpm or flat out at 4000rpm, the speed difference is actually pretty marginal to the point where it is just wasted energy. I just figure that the deep V of the Caribbean was optimized for ride, not speed.

Hull design is all a compromise of course. Physics hasn't changed. There are just some new tweaks on well established principals. I would love to upgrade to an American designed deck boat between 25 and 28 feet, with a deep V, a good sized cockpit for socializing when moored and a single engine. I don't need to go 40mph. I just want a good ride at around 25kts, in 3 foot chop. I can’t have a bow rider. We put our boats on swing moorings about 100 yards off the beach. They have to be able to withstand the once a year 40 knot storm. Bow riders are uninsureable on a mooring in Australia as water can come over the front and sink them. You can only insure them when moored in a marina. So I need a deck boat.I have considered the Cobalt 283 because I have read that Cobalt is very well finished. But I also remember Formula from when I was a kid with their legendary offshore designs, although the cockpits were small. I understand both are on par in terms of build quality. But is one more of a lake design, vs. an offshore design?I want a well made boat that can handle some weather.

Are you talking 'brand new boat' or something older , or even 'much older ?'
I think in either instance you're going to be hard pressed to find a reasonably substantial 28 footer with just a single in it . Is 'Caribbean' a builder or a model produced by Riviera ?
There was a Bertram knock off here a long while back that I thought was a Riviera , it might have been scaled down to between 23.5 and 24.5 feet. Looked like a Bertram 25 FBSF .Wasn't a bad little boat at all .
If you're on moorings you need a good bit of freeboard all the way around though and some compromises might have to be made .

I am looking for a used boat. A new boat of that length is over my budget. I am looking in the $80k range, which is about half what I figure a new 28'er might be.

One of the boats that appealed to me was the Cobalt 273. It was only made for a few years starting around 2011. Still a single. LOA 28'10", 5,800lbs. With a 380hp MerCruiser 8.2 Mag it did 42 knots at 4900rpm. Pretty fast for a boat of that weight, so I am thinking that it too has a stepped hull, like the 2600 Regal, and I didn't like the ride in chop on that one.

Caribbean is brand built by International Marine in Melbourne, Australia. Quite separate from Riviera, which are made two states up in Queensland. I would post or link but I can't yet. They are very different from US boats. Big cockpit. Twin stern drives. Over the years Caribbean has been making them wider and wider. Now they are 10'6", so they don't ride as well as the old 25's that used to be around 8'6". But they sit well. And that's what they are - a social boat for a lot of people. My old Caribbean 23 is 8 feet wide with a 21 degree deadrise and stepped hulls weren't invented back then, so it cuts through the chop pretty well - even better than the new 27.

There's a bit of history to Caribbean and Bertram. Arch Spooner first built boats in 1958, one of the first pioneers of fibreglass in Australia. He built a lake for testing, a marina on Melbourne's Port Phillip Bay (Which the Spooners still own) and IM have build 50,000 boats. Spooner began building Miami based Bertrams in Australia under licence in the 60's. In the 70's, they quit using the name Bertram and started using the name Caribbean. But the hulls were similar. Bertram was all about the deep V hull. It was perfect for the bay in Melbourne. We had a Bertram 25 flybridge back in the 80's.

Now that I think of it I'm positive that thing was a Caribbean version of the Bert 25. I'm sure it's still hiding around here somewhere although I haven't seen it for maybe 18 years . A nice little boat, single V8 with a Volvo D/P . People that got the license to build Bertram copies did a pretty good job , they had a tough act to copy back then . Riva made a few beauties as well.
BTW my cousin has a 43' Riviera Express right now .
I have to echo your sentiments on ride quality though . I still prefer a straight Deep V over a step bottom , and I'm not afraid of an older boat as long as it is a reputable one .
If it were me I'd be a bit careful getting anything too flash coz your mooring in salt water and that changes a whole lot of things.

International Marine did do a good job of manufacturing the Bertram under license in Melbourne. The current incarnation, the Caribbean 27, is incredibly spacious. It's a party boat. But the finish is nothing like even basic US made boats. Very rudimentary. Plain edge fibreglass on the interior where US boats would be padded with material. Basic fittings. Basic instruments. Everything is an extra. They are priced to compete with the imports from the US but the basic Caribbean is about the same as a kitted out US boat. Labor costs are VERY high in Australia. We are pricing ourselves out of the market. The two advantages that a Caribbean has over a US boat is ride quality and big interior with high sides that keeps you out of the Cold "Southerlies" that we get down South. They are probably the only two reasons they can still sell them.

Rivieras are in a different category. They are a step up and go head to head with the US imports. Much better finish. They are also priced that way. Made up in Queensland where being out on the water is much more a part of life (Think Florida conditions) than down in Melbourne (Think San Francisco). Nobody goes out on the water in Melbourne without a jacket - just in case - even in the Summer. We get sudden changes and wild weather.

I would consider seeking out an older hull that is solid. The engine is the problem, if it has been in salt without a heat exchanger. I know all about salt water corrosion. My 23 footer has the original 1983 Mercruiser 230hp small block carburetted V8 but the only reason it is still around is due to the heat exchanged we put in when it was new. Vital in a salt boat. Some people here seek out good deep V hulls and have the transom converted to twin outboards. Easier to maintain.

I guess one of the things I am looking to compare is the ride and build quality of Formula vs. Cobalt. It seems both manufacturers are up there with build quality. But would it be an accurate statement to say that Formula is more of a rough water hull?

BTW, in between owning a single stern drive Bertram 20 and a twin stern drive flybridge Bertram 25, we also owned a single engine flybridge Huntsman 23. The deep V on Bertrams were actually designed by Ray Hunt.

Many boat labels and models over the years actually originate on a hull that has its roots with a legendary designer. Classic designs get licenced, change hands, renamed etc. It's a bit like Don Aranow, who started Formula Marine, which he sold, then started Magnum Marine, which he sold, then started Cigarette, which he sold, then started USA Racing Team, which he sold, then started Squadron Marine, during which he bought back Cigarette, then bought back USA Racing Team. The previous owner, Ben Kramer, was forced to sell it back to Aranow after the Customs Service refused to do business with him (The boats were purchased by customs as chase boats for smugglers). Kramer was so ticked off, he murdered Aranow (Ended up as manslaughter) in the street in Miami. Interesting history. The offshore racing business was filled with shady characters.

Hi RR, good to hear from a local. Boating in Melbourne is a small world.

You would know all about the powerful Southerly changes that we get. When you're 10km offshore in an open vessel under 30 feet, one has to be respectful.

I put a call into the delightful Mr. Spooner about 8 years ago, asking about some weights in the old 80's Caribbean 23. He was very accomodating and managed to dig up an old brochure, which he sent to me and I still have. He was as sharp as a tack and gave me a good education on the history of the hull. It was great to listen to someone so involved in the business.

Rivs are great and diesels are rock solid and economical, but I can't go to inboard screws. Our clifftop house at Sorrento sees 3 foot of water at the end of the jetty on those rare Easterlies.

The bigger the boat I look at, the more attractive is seems. But then, everything is a compromise.

BTW, remember the Norm Jenks era? He had some fantastic deep V's. I never knew what they were. We had a berth at St. Kilda. They always looked great cruising out. A friend of mine had a Crestliner, a phenomenal riding, beautiful 25'ish boat with big twin Mercruisers. I do wonder whether they were related.

You might be thinking of the Yenkens. Not us. Long time friends of my family though. Everyone knew everyone each other down there when I grew up. Things have changed. A lot more houses. A lot more tourists. It's lost some of it's getaway character in the Summertime, but thankfully there is still a big bay to escape on. Weeroona Bay or the Bend down at the heads were my two favorite spots.

Might look into the boats you suggested.