Mercury 400R for Cat applications
 

I think we should start our discussion about the 400R and related optics in one thread so that we may follow its progression modifications and applications.

There is concerns about weight, Lower unit diameter, reliability of a new product, steering system tiebars. Jack plate or brackets
Motor mounts and more

Let's discuss what we need to do for our boars to make this motor work and ost results as we get them,

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concerns or does not meet high speed applications

1. delrin guide plate has too high tolerances

2. motor mounts not solid?

3. rear tie-bars and wing plates

4. front tie-bars

5. lowers too big of a diameter, will need to raise motors

6. no low water pickups

7. sustained near WOT RPM

8. lowers can't handle near-surface operation

9. availability of hi-perf props






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DCB has a new m29 with a pair at the LA show. Will be interesting to see/hear #'s, and answers to the the points above. I know I'll be following/watching the progress. May take some time to get a real idea of pros/cons

problem I see with the 29 dcb is we really never heard if they dialed it in with the xs's so how are we going to know what the difference is?

We should stick to facts and not what someone reads or hear say if we want accurate information.
1) lowers have low water pick ups
2) Prop shaft same as current sportmaster on 300xs/x motors.
3) Lower unit is more beefier than current model.
4) Engine height is determined based on whether or not the motor maintains water pressure or bite of prop being used. Not because of the size of the lower unit.
5) There are plenty of props available. Dewald/Herring both make props up 36" pitch. With 7000rpm operating range it will not be a problem.

Noli have you even seen the engine and rigged a boat?
Not to be negative but I appreciate your enthusiasm but sometimes it is better to listen and learn than to comment.

Who and what are the current vendors and options for the tie bar and steering plates?

I have hydraulic Jack plates and love them. Does anyone currently make one that will handle these beast?

Sam
The R+R plates I use are rated for the verado. My buddy has been running them on his 34 Fountain for over 2 years and they run that boat hard in the ocean during tournaments with no issues. I would highly recommend them but they do not have a hydraulic option.
Latham makes an upgraded tie bar kit like Noli posted (thank you). I spoke to Bob and told him they needed to come up with something. I am sure he will. I can find out a time frame. The guys at the show from Mercury racing also realize that for the cat application they need a rear tie bar also.

For jack plates Call Scott, at Porta products, he's da man!

I had twin 260s' mounted on one and really liked the setup. You just have to keep you eye on water pressure when raising motors.

FWIW, and I know this is apples and oranges, I was keeping an eye on some of the CC's with 400's in the Miami poker run yesterday to see how they were holding up... All the boats were spending a lot of time in the air (over a long distance) and I didn't hear of or see any failures with the 400 powerheads or with the lowers... But again, apples and oranges, but I can tell you they had props out of the water, a lot! There was only one OB cat that I saw, he had 300XS's and Im sure he took a major beating!

Well that's something, they made it through one poker run ;) I'd hope so!

So........honest opinions here. IF you were to move the tanks and cockpit forward on a 28 skater, do you think it's possible to have a decent balance with a set of these? I'm seriously considering it since I wanna do a flat deck conversion in the future possibly.......

Jr.

UI have been thinking about that for a while since I found out about the motor coming out some time ago. I would have to say it depends on how you will use the boat. For anything other than flat water not sure it is a good idea.
1) I do not think moving the tanks for CG is the right solution. It will help but what happens as the fuel burns off?
2) Moving the cockpit is an option but would ruin the look of the 28 IMO.
3) You could achieve offsetting the weight by adding a ballast tank or just plain old lead in the bow.
4) Also since they are a in-line 6 not sure how that will effect the handling also.
5) You could fill in the notch and bolt them to the transom. This would help CG
By the time you do all that plus the weight of the motor I am not sure how much actual gain in MPH you will get over a pair of strong 300x motors. You may also want to strengthen the transom to hold those things also.

Ron, did you go out today? Freezing in Florida , Juts relative! 400"s on a 28 INSANE!! Just drive one w/ 300Xs's. All the weight they can handle. All you arm chair quarterbacks don't know what your are talking about. A 28 is just barely able to handle 300xs's. A 30 or 32 with stern weight just adds flight to the bow! I thought that the goal wad to lighten the boat! Or is just Me!! I only drive mine on relatively flat water and love it. seeing photos and talking to those who use them of open water WTF!!! We need high HP, LIGHET WEIGHT, reliable motors for our small Skaters!

You guys are crazy even considering hanging 1,400 pounds off the back of a 28. My buddy that had triple 2.5s (1,200 pounds total) admitted that it was only good on flat water (Lake Havasu). I've personally owned two 28s that I rerigged from 2.5/ROS to 3.0/3.2 and I can tell you that it is a drastic difference just adding 200 pounds more to the transom. I can't even imagine adding another 400 pounds to what I have back there now! Why do you think you've never seen a 28 with triple 3.0s or 3.2s - because the boat would suck! It baffles me that you guys think that just because it's still only twins, that mounting 1,400 pounds off the back of a 28 Skater would be ok. It never was ok before the 400s came out, and it still isn't. Remember, the 28 was designed for twin 375 pound 2.4s, we're pushing it running 500 pound 3.2s. And just for the record, that DCB M29 isn't going to be some great performing boat with those 400s - I'd say 110 at best and it will suck in the rough (as all DCBs do anyways). What's so funny about the internet, is that a bunch of guys are gonna' start running these big heavy pig motors on smaller boats and saying that they work great, yet in reality, the boats are going to perform like ****! I can't wait to run past any sub-30' cat with 400s on the back with my 300s in real world conditions (wakes, turns, rough water, etc.).......... Rant over, sorry guys. :D

How long do you guys think it will take DBR or others to pump these 400's up to 475 HP's? I give it a year.

Its not going to help.

Dave and Joe won't ever touch these motors...........they're two-stroke guys. The Verados have been out for years and there's nobody yet offering performance mods for those - this is just another Verado. I'd bet money Mercury has a lock on these ECUs anyways (just like they've done on the '14 and up 3.2XS computers), which won't allow any modifications to these motors.

just playing with hp/weight and not considering torque and other variables....such as actual hp vs rated output

300X = 480lb = 1.6 lb/hp
300XS = 505lb = 1.68 lb/hp
350XS DBR kit = 505lb = 1.44lb/hp
400 Verado = 668lb = 1.67lb/hp
2.5/280 Offshore = 375lb = 1.339 lb/hp

what the he!!......
300X @ 320 Hp = 1.5lb/hp

Just throwing that it out there......Remember fellas, your talking to a guy who put twin 505lbs 300hp motors on the back of a 22 ft tunnel with a 850 lbs layup.... :cool-smiley-011:

I was just thinking that since these are the new" Merc Racing"offering, somebody will find a way to mod it. We might have to wait for warranty to run out on this first batch.

Boost, ecu's, cams, rocker ratio, heads, valves, compression, exhaust, cranks. Many mods could make a significant difference. Somebody will figure it out.

I would be shocked if someone isn't already working on some performance mods.

Nope, like Dale said Mercury has a lock on all the newer PCM's. Nobody is going to be able to touch them with any mods. From what I've heard DBR is buying up all the older PCM's they can get there hands on because they can flash the earlier ones.
Some company has been flashing the older Verado PCM's, right now I can't remember who, but don't think that's going to happen on the new ones.
The other rumor I've heard is that Mercury and EPA is getting ready to crack down on the companies altering EPA compliant PCM's. Time will tell.
It's definitely changing times for performance outboard boating. I saw the writing on the wall in 2000 when California did their first attack on the two strokes. I don't think the two stroke outboard, XS or not, will make it to the year 2020.

They might if we get rid of the Obama administration.......

I think your calculations are off on the 300x motor. Based on speeds of all the 28's over the years I based it on about 325hp and it comes out to 1.47.
Not sure about a 350hp Opti with out some serious internal work either.

Dale, You are right on the money regarding these big motors. I know first hand as down here in the ocean a good set up with weight moved around is not enough. These 400hp Verados are not for small light weight boats. I know everyone is excited to get more HP but SL brings up a good point.
At the end of the day it all comes to weight vs HP.

I've seen claims from 320hp to 330+ so I kept the number conservative....

I haven't researched DBR's mod's - just went from what they posted on their site from back when they had the triple 2.5/28 skater listed.

It was included the 350 as it is a viable option (and showed the pwr/lb ratio over the production XS).

Bigger/reliable ponies is definitely part of the thrill but there is a point where the added weight is going to just kill the handling of the cats well beyond any possible benifit of the hp gain.

You are essentially correct. Never the less, ROM chips can be swapped out with an EEPROM chip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Read-only_memory

Despite, US regulations, even if swapping the ROM chip is not a feasible task, unlikely. A complete board with any desired chip could be manufactured. Even if outlawed in the US, people will still get them if they really want them, drug war ring any bells!

Computer boards can still be made by hand, I think to many people think that some kind of fancy modern facility is necessary to build computers. The WOZ, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak - http://www.woz.org/ like every other personal computer enthusiast back in the 1950-70s, built there own boards with off the shelf components in the basement or garage.

The current proliferation of cheap ARM micro/mini computers is a perfect example, these are only a few, of the hundreds available.

Raspberry PI $35 http://www.raspberrypi.org/
Banana PI $44 Banana PI Amazon http://www.bananapi.com/
Beagle Bone Black Development Board $52.95 http://www.amazon.com/BeagleBone-Bla...gle+bone+black
Matrix ARM mini PC $149.00 http://www.amazon.com/TBS%C2%AE2910-...matrix+mini+pc

Fact of the matter, is that there are existing micro/mini computers that most probably provide capabilities beyond what the computer within an outboard provides. Since many of the cheap ARM mini/micro computers are specifically designed with interfaces for expansion boards for building for custom uses. There is simply no reason why an add-on board with a wiring harness attachment cannot be built that will plug right into an existing micro/mini computer. Or for that matter a computer board specific for plugging right into a wiring harness. They would have to build smart wiring harnesses to stop that, which could be circumvented by building a custom wiring harness.

They may be able to outlaw off the shelf components in the US, but they will never be able to stop other countries from manufacturing computer components, or stop the basement tinkerer, nor will they successfully out law free thought.

An additional thought to using an off the shelf board. Since adding wifi or bluetooth is a simple matter, while some boards actually have wifi or bluetooth built in. It would be a simple matter of having an app on your smart phone, or existing panel, to control tuning adjustments on the fly.

I agree with what you are saying. If man makes it man can beat it. Question is feasibility. A manufacturer from another country could make something and sell it in the US and probably be fine as far as EPA and a US manufacturer going after them. I for one would not want to buy something with zero recourse if it takes out my engine.
As to the home backyard guy making his own I really don't think many of us are Wozniaks with that capability.
If the current manufactures continue on the path they're going there will not be any more two strokes. I've heard mention of new 2.5 blocks in the works over seas and here and time will tell how they fair. I've been in the manufacturing business all my life and there is a lot involved to make something as complex as a block and it's components.
Anything is capable of being done. The economics to do it is the part that makes it become feasable or not. If there is some of the new billionaires, that have the money to do this, with the interest in performance boating maybe we will see it happen. Time will tell.
Most of us are in the position that we have to deal with what the current manufacturers are offering and that's it. I'm very grateful that I was able to enjoy high performance boating and racing during the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 2000's which in my opinion were the best days of two stroke high performance engines.

Onetime, you are spot on. Clearly an effort to build hundreds or thousands of devices to circumvent regulated hard-coded electronics, would bring forth the door kickers. My line of thought was more towards those few that are willing to take on risk. Obviously the average boater certainly would not want to jeopardized their hard earned income. While there are those with deeper pockets that jump up and down with great glee, when there is any risk involved.

I am grateful to have experienced the 60's, 70', 80s, etc, boats, cars motorcycles. airplanes, old man raced cars and boats long before I was born. I have been fortunate that my father retired to Mexico in 71. In 72 I turned 10, and my father purchased a Volkswagen Safari, "Thing" in the US. It was essentially my car, taking trash to the dump, running to the store for food, and more importantly more cigarettes and booze for the old farts! I had a drivers license at 12 years of age, not unlike the old US farmers drivers license for kids that lived in areas with no school bus service. It was only good for the state we lived in, but then I was not going on weekend long trips at 12!

My old man told me the 70's in Mexico was like the 1930's in the US, he was born in 1921. I have watched a lot of US policy become law in Mexico, some good, but far to many of the bad ones. The whole world is going down the same path. I am happy I lived in an era of some, free choice, while current policy is very difficult for me to swallow. Unfortunately the newer US generations can only imagine what freedoms they have never experienced, are like.


There are a few people that are building 350-400 hp old block v6 and v8 Evinrudes, on sceamandfly, can be built to last, and in some cases can be sub 400 lbs with carbs. The blocks are becoming more difficult to be found. A lot of the v8's get sold to Europe, were they are used in racing cars.

http://www.screamandfly.com/content.php


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcO_2pLqYqw It really sucks that the few that want to work outside of the box are being forced to stay in the box. I really do not fathom the reasoning behind forcing the few that do not want stock, to tow the line. 99.9% of the population stay with stock everything, why they think that .1% is causing so much damage to the eco system, is beyond me, especially when there are so many other things that cause damage, remain.

Anyways I better let you guys get back to your discussion. Just wanted to throw out there, there is some off the shelf hardware that could be adapted to get around mandated tuning.

I don't really think it is a question of horsepower/weight that makes the 400 unviable. I think it is handling. In flat, calm, pedictable water it is probably not a big issue as the boat takes a set and the power propels it forward. But in most boating conditions with waves, wakes, etc. as soon as the boat begins to pitch and yaw and gets tossed about all that extra weight gets thrown around - in all sorts of different directions - creating a real handling issue. You can't stay in the throttles if your boat is out of control.

Where are the mystical engines that were produced for the XCats??

No Way were they 670lbs and if they built 2, Merc already has the required CAD Programming for all the CNC for production runs.....does Merc Racing have a sugestion box??

[QUOTE=speicher lane;4268517]Where are the mystical engines that were produced for the XCats??

No Way were they 670lbs and if they built 2, Merc already has the required CAD Programming for all the CNC for production runs.....does Merc Racing have a sugestion box??[/QUOTE
X Cat is the only hope for us to get a light weight 4 stroke motor. Those guys can pay for RD.
The 15" mids were one off. They were not something they could sell. Powerhead was the verado.

And....WE WILL!!! Just hope that "We" are not stupid enough to get "Her Thighness" elected. Just say'in.

[/QUOTE]X Cat is the only hope for us to get a light weight 4 stroke motor. Those guys can pay for RD.
The 15" mids were one off. They were not something they could sell. Powerhead was the verado.[/QUOTE]

I think we are on the same page - my point is that the R&D has already been completed (or at least the majority of the headscratching) if Merc would come to the table and deliver to the cat market what they have for the big CC market

It wouldn't be unreasonable to swap a merc pcm for an aftermarket unit. At least in my mind lol.

I agree, us outboard guys had better hang on to our 2 stroke stuff and buy up plenty of spares until we are ready to switch over to inboard big block power

Say it ain't so! :mad:

I want to see four of those bad boys on the back of your 36!:evilb:

For now, I think that I choose to live vicariously through you, NastyBug and the next man up... Unless of course Mercury decides to take me up on my generous offer to use my 36 as a test platform for Quad 400R's :D

How much weight in sand bags did we put in the back of your 36 At LOTO to keep the Stern planted???? I think if anyone has a chance of showcasing the new 400Rs it's Mr Quadarchy.

You have an awesome setup Superdave. I think with props and playing with rotation, hopefully not too much weight, she will perform fine. Setup is the fun part. I would think some rough water would help the hull take set also. Quad 400s', if Merc would offer......