To rebuild or replace that is the question
 

Like the title says, I'm currently on the fence about what to do with the power on my 32. I've currently got trip X's and want to rebuild them before I start running the boat for the summer again but am honestly thinking about selling them and repowering with either trip XS's or twin 400's...

I know that if I swap motors I'll miss the X's but the X's seem to be selling for good money and that would go a long way to updating the power. Then the question is if I repower do I go XS's and stay trips since the top end and acceleration is awesome and I'd still get better economy, or do I take a loss on those two put the 400's on and have a much more updated boat?

What would you do and why???

Rebuild. Least expensive option and won't sacrifice any performance.

I would say twin 400r. It might not be as fast as the triple setup but should be more reliable and still provide pretty good speeds. Plus if you go to sell the boat I would think more people would want twin 400s over triple 300s.

MLB75
This is one of situation many of us with 30' plus OB cats think about all the time. If it were me I would start by listing what is most important to least and fill in the blanks. I know there are guys that say a pair of 400's will run as good as triples but I have a hard time believing that. Especially when using the 300x motor. Chardt on here has his boat running 125mph+ consistently as shown in a video. So far a twin 400r boat is 114mph as a best.
If you look at some other facts a quad engine 400r Nor-tech CC outran a triple 7Marine 557 boat. The Seven marine boat ran 88mph and the 400r boat hit 100mph.
Here are my questions I ask myself.
1) Do I plan to keep the boat or sell in the next 2-3yrs.
2) Do I care about top speed
3) Is not having a warranty an issue
4) What is my budget for the Repower or rebuild.
5) Noise factor?
6) 2 stroke oil and smoke?
7) Are you someone that can work on the motors or have to use mechanic?
8) Fuel Milage?

Just some of things to consider. However if you decide on the 400r's let me know. I would be interested in the X motors.
Thanks

Hey MLB75, I think Ron is asking the right questions. Where do you live now. Im in Toms River NJ. I would consider taking you out for a ride if you are ever In the Toms River area. My boat is the one he was referring to that ran 114mph. I have never owned a boat with any of the other 300 motors. Im sure they run very well. Ive been out a few times recently since I have gotten her home. Although I have nothing to compare them too I absolutely love the 400Rs. My question is as Ron said how long are you planning on keeping it. I don't think you would be disappointed at all but why spend the money if you aren't keeping it long. Now that Ive run her in the salt water Im pretty sure Ill get another couple mph out of her on top end But 114 or 116 or so shouldn't really matter. She's definitely got more left in her if it does.

Trips for sure, if one quits, you can still run 50 going back.
Weight is close to the same with trips, but power is way better.
Oh and the Cool Factor.

I can't see spending $30,000.00 or more to go at least 10mph slower and lose a lot of acceleration and load carrying capability. I believe Grants did a 32B with 400's and it lost at least 10mph from the 300x motors. I'd wait till you can get 500 reliable horse power out of the four stroke outboards before I spend the money. You already have the 300x motors and they are cheap to rebuild and easy to work on. That's my thoughts and I have a 32' skater with triple 300x motors.

Carl

just as all above stated about what u want out of the boat and how long going to keep it
if u were building a modern 2016 hull with new power 400s would be the direction to go
as new hulls are being built for them
running an older hull that the motors fit the era
and having the extra excelleration of the trips
as stated rebuilding is cheap,,,,there is a few builders that know these motors well
can bump them to 350 hp each and still be dependable
and still have $ left over the price left over of repower
for fuel and be adding more mph and really fun excelleration
I did my little boat with trips over twins
the wow factor and excelleration is just plain fun

Thanks for the input, you've basically told me the same thing that I was thinking I just needed to hear that I wasn't making a bad decision...

I love the trip setup because it looks cool and has such amazing acceleration, the boat will just leap up on plane and doesn't stop pulling until you pull back on the throttles. The main reason I was considering going to the 400's was to be able to mold on a "bustle" between the two motors to clean up the rear profile and make getting on and off the boat easier but no big deal I'll figure out a different ladder setup and leave it the way it is.

To answer a few of the question above.

Yes I plan to keep the boat for a while, I'm pretty much going through the whole thing now so hopefully I've got several years of trouble free boating ahead of me. That's why I figured if I was going to do it now was the time.

Top speed matters but to me every day top speed and longer distance top speed matters more. That's one of the other big things pushing me to stay 2 Stroke. The Verado's are nice but let’s face it with the valve trains they aren't going to like running wide open for 90 miles during a poker run, I've done so several times with my last boat that had 300 XS's allowing me to run with much faster boats that just didn't want to push it for as long a time. It's funny to me that a 102MPH outboard boat (much less a 120MPH one) will run right with 140MPH boats in a poker run more often than not because they don't want to break things. Again a nod to keeping the X's but was making sure I wasn't just being silly...

Warrantee is nice but I'm more than capable of doing 99% of the work myself and it seems that Mercury doesn't keep anything in stock so other than them covering the cost of parts whenever they're available I almost think it's a false sense of security. I will also say after eating 2 compressors on 300XS's they were a bit of a letdown (supposedly the newer versions of the compressors are better though so maybe that wouldn't continue to be an issue). The only reason I'd go XS over the X's I have is fuel economy, the X's seem to be VERY thirsty and since we boat quite a bit it's got to at least be a consideration.

The budget was pretty much it costs what it costs. I was figuring in that 30K plus selling my motors range though. I was fine with that if it was the better option because IMO the boat would also appreciate for at least part of that and if it got me a better overall experience that’s the cost of boating. Would I like to keep that $ in my pocket sure LOL but like I mentioned above with going through as much of the rest of the boat as I am I figured now was the time if I was going to do it.

As for rebuild budget again it’s going to cost what it costs, its part of boating. That being said I don’t necessarily think I care about spending a bunch more money on hoping these motors up at the cost of reliability.

Oil and smoke don’t matter, granted I don’t want it to smoke like a freight train at the dock but that shouldn’t be the case anyway.

Noise, none of them are going to get the sound of a blown BBC so it’s a wash almost a nod to the X’s that when running at least have a little attitude.

Like I mentioned above mileage is a consideration but I can buy a lot of gas for $30K.

So where does everyone get the parts from when they rebuild, or does everyone else just send them off?

the new 300xs have most the bugs out of them and is a motor still in production for on a couple more yrs
as the 4 chokes have taken over their lineup as that's where they are going
im an old 2.5 guy as I raced them for many yrs and know them well so at 375lbs each I used them on my set up
reason 300x is bringing in good resale as they are wanted for their simplicity and power
dave bush and diamond are 2 great builders for them motors
and builders like them are good to go to
being april tomorrow and 3 rebuilds may take a bit of the summer to have built
the x motor turns 7,000 rs and makes 325 stock
when they rebuild em and do tiny clean ups they really perform and still dependable
parts are available through pro marine for all components on these motors from powerhead to gearcase
as far as entering at rear ive seen a single step and a grab rail handle installed on both sides of hull anodized and looked good

I would think the 400's would offer more long term reliability (likely have more robust lowers too, which is an issue with 300x's on a 32), would get significantly better fuel economy, and have significantly better resale. Not to mention no smoke and be whisper quiet.

I agree with all these statements. Although the smell of two cycle oil in the morning..... I heard that Steve's boat pulls very hard in mid range also. I wonder what the difference in mid range torque between the 400Rs and triple 300Xs or XSs. Just wondering if you will have significant gains with trips 300s versus twin 400 when you consider extra weight and lower unit drag of trips.

Twin 400r's with fluids (motors only) 1368lbs
Triple 300x's 1440lbs (motors only)
Also 1extra trim pump and battery.

975hp vs 800hp.
3ea smaller lower units vs 2ea club foots.

boat for boat IMO I think the triple 300x set up will eat a 400r package for lunch. :boat: I can't imagine as hard as my boat pulls now what it would be like with a 3rd motor. Or maybe I can :party-smiley-004:

Guess we all need to go for a ride in Steve's boat LOL!!!!

Gotta love this stuff :daz:

My post worked! Lets all invite ourselves to Steve's house for a test ride....

I'm in! Steve, dinner too??? :thankyouthankyou:

Well we've discussed this at length and I agree, but I've kind of been trained to look at numbers and crap like that. I can't find the Torque/HP curve for the 400R anywhere. But with super chargers it's got to make some serious torque and torque makes boats fly. When Pete was in Steve's boat for the dial in he said it pulled hard like a bigger I/O boats. So we know 114 vs 120+ In top speed is given so far but in the mid range where I live what will the difference be? Will heavier more powerful triple 300X or XS with three lower units in the water pull away or will it be even in the 50 to 100 range? I bet there will be very little difference and the 400Rs may surprise you in mid range. I know my old 338 is heavy as a tank but is stupid quick the with big torque the super charger produces.

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Courtesy DBR

Does anyone have this info for the 400R??

Spock did you take into consideration of your graphs and the multiple factors of 3 versus 2?????
LOL
It would be nice if they had one.
Keep in mind the 400r does not make 400hp until 7000rpm either.

I am will to send Steve my Garmin Virb to log some video runs and acceleration runs. I can do a comparison with my boat. Would be cool to see.

My .02 cents. If your keeping it for 5 to 10 years repower with XS'. If going to cut loose rebuild as I have done multiple times with 2.5s'. As someone stated earlier the promaxes are cheap to rebuild. You made the argument for not going with the 400s. I run 15 to 20 miles never going under 80 on average says the smart phone. I generally run 65 to 90 miles every outing. The two strokes with OS mids rule that world for me!

Patience Grasshopper. If some one can provide me with the double top secret Mercury Racing Dyno sheet for the 400Rs I'm ready to calculate out the torque vs surface area of the three screaming memes versus the two roaring tigers with the "Club Foot lower unit"

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Then again I may just get my kids to do the calculations.

another consideration is size
400 is a 6cyl 158 ci or 2.6 litre motor
300x is 3.0 litre making 325 @5,000 rpm limited at 7
so 73lbs heavier which is approx. 10 gallon of fuel is nothing on a 32' boat
but talking mid punch
975hp at 5k
say 400 makes 350 @5 is 700
with 3 blades to help each other for less slip with 975
is a monster in the mid,,,,,
got to remember talking o/b
as 6cyls and 400 hp is all we have to work with
just as in the new ccs 3 run x ,,,4 run approx. 10+ faster,,,they have hit 100 on a vee with 4+ 400s to get there
I/o u have 454 -900 ci to work with ,,,,,330hp -1650
so them twins are different world
less hp needs more help,,,,,,,
these new hulls are lots different than the older hulls
so more power needed,,,,,,,

Your "kids" would never touch that relic of a calculator! You take me back to my college structures classes!! Do you keep old **** like that? Maybe you should mount it in your dash as a ultra cool GPS! I bet it will plug right into the 400R.....when you get them!

You're right Ron, Everybody is invited. We'll have to figure out a date. We can take turns going out for two man rides. It would be a fun weekend or its better here during the week. Have a pool and a couple yamaha wave runners. What do you think? Im pretty sure by the way that after discussing my set up situation with a few qualified people I will easily see 120mph when all is said and done over here in the salt and in discussing it with Dave Dewald. He's been working on some things for me for a few months now. Probably call him next week. I definitely gained something from the salt alone in my opinion although no top end comparable conditions like out at Merc. Im not messing around with Setback or lowers til next season so it will have to wait but we will see. Let me know about the visit thing. Lets put Sam and Ron in charge.

I have not seen any dyno results for the 400R, but... I would like to make a reasonable comparison to two stroke racing dirt bikes to 4 stroke bikes - be it they are different displacements, but the results support the 400r's reported midrange power. I spent most of my life with a leg over motocross bikes and ridden both 2 and 4 stroke bikes and know their strengths and limitations intimately. Check out these graphs of dyno runs, back to back on the same dyno from a motorcycle magazine test. Amazing what a 4 stroke can produce over a very wide RPM band. A supercharged engine will just magnify the power band width.
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David
I do not think the graphs are the same. One is for torque and the other for power?
If what you say is true and I do not doubt regarding the bikes a 300hp xs with out run a 300 verado any day of the week.

Yes they are different. One is torque and one is HP,comparing a Yamaha YZ125 (blue line) to a Yamaha 250F ( Yellow line). A 125 - 2 stroke will keep up with a 250 -4 in good conditions. Add up hills, sand, etc. and the torque of the 4 will blast away! In a bike with gears, you shift less with the 4 because of the wide torque band, corner to corner and on starts. HP is HP and weight is weight as we all have been preaching! The midrange punch of the 400's should be stunning though! Top end not so much in my opinion. If they (400's) were lightweight, they would by on my 28 however. I think that is why the work so well on CC's. Back in 1997 when Doug Henry won the AMA outdoor MX title on a prototype 400 cc Yamaha four stroke against a field of 250 -2 strokes, it was approx. 250# bike with 40HP against 230#, 50 HP 2 -strokes. Ten years later the are 450cc, 230# and 50+ HP and reliable as hell! Maybe, with some R&D, the big boys will make a lightweight, high HP four. I know it can be done.