Another Trailer brake question
 

Hey guys, before you flame, I did a search, just didn't quite find what I was looking for. I have a 2005 Outlaw 23 on a 2005 Dorsey steel trailer with 2 3500 lb axles. I'm guessing that I'm at the limit of the axles, as I have actually bent them in the past. They are 2x3 steel beams with spindles welded on. I have debated getting regular axles in the past, but that's another topic. The question is upgrading the brakes. We trailer the boat everywhere, and it currently has surge brakes with drums on both axles. I know in a perfect world that the drums are fine, but this isn't a perfect world. I have fought these drums for the last time and want to upgrade to something better. I was wondering what kind of options there are and what I need to stay away from. I did see an electric reverse lock out and that sounds terrific as I back the boat up a small hill into the shop and have to get out and lock the tongue with the lever, and jam a screw driver in it or it won't stay down. So what do yall recommend?

Buy a Kodiak disc brake kit from etrailer.com.
I bought direct from Kodiak many years ago when kicking drums off my trailer, and going to tandem axle disc.
You can buy lines, solenoid, and other parts from Championtrailers.com

I documented this upgrade here in a thread, on my tandem trailer several years ago.

If you are investing that kind of money in the trailer, I would go ahead and upgrade to Electric over Hydraulic (EoH) as well.
What are you towing with?

Also, you should be close, but under the max capacity for those axles and that trailer.

Sincerely,
OffTrailerBrakesOnly.com :D

Put disc on my rinker trailer years ago and really like it, actually like full electric brakes (fresh water only) on my cruiser tri-axle trailer better. Make sure to have either the disc brake master cylinder or punch a hole on the check vale in your current master cylinder. Installed a electric solenoid shut off valve on the disc brakes which I can active from the cab, for backing up. Other then that as Sydways mentioned get EoH

Found my old thread from 12 years ago, back when I was still wet behind the ears.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...sc-brakes.html

Electric over Hydraulic... I think I understand this theory. If it's what I think it is, itd be better than a noisy hitch at a stoplight. Looks like I have some homework. Do I need all Stainless? I'm in freshwater only and the boat/trailer stays inside except when we're in the water. Could I go full electric or is that asking for trouble? Sorry for asking questions that I haven't had time to search for myself.

As far as truck, I have a 2500HD Chevy with a big block :). I do have a brake box if that's what you were asking about, however I have towed junk my whole life, most of the time without brakes. You used the term wet behind the ears, well, that's me in the boat world. This is my wife's boat. The only boat I owned prior to this one was a fishing boat, so this is all new to me.

Thanks for the replies, I gave the first page of your thread a read, but don't have time to go further at the moment.

All Dodge, where in KY are you?

IMHO, you don't need SS, but it's a solid investment. If you boated in 100% salt, yes; go stainless. Dacromet (used to be Nickel Cadmium) is fine.

And you are right about EoH being much better than surge brakes. Thousands of posts on that topic here on OSO.

Some folks do run and like full electric brakes on boat trailers. I don't have any direct comparison, but a few have posted about it.
EoH is and would be my choice. I feel as though they are more variable than straight electric.

EoH branded Tutorial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zlg5qN2UCg

For fresh water I don't see any issue with full electric brakes. As before I have a 3 axle trailer for my cruiser and have all axles with electric. There stop much better then the surge that use to be on it.

Never had EoH but from what I've heard they are even better

I'm in Cumberland County KY

All Dodge, I've been in your neck of the woods a few times over the years racing fourwheelers.

Back on topic, I have found the disc conversion that I'm going to buy on etrailer, but now I have to figure out what to do with my hitch. I have a goofy hitch, so welding it solid isn't really an option. I guess I will plan to cut it off, and add a normal hitch. Before I do though, do you think I could get by with my surge coupler/master cyl til winter? The EoH definitely looks like the way to go, but my concern is getting everything working by the 4th. I'm confident I can throw the brakes on in a couple of hours, but I'm not sure I could find the time this week to get everything else done. As it is, yesterday was the last trip the boat will be making on those brakes. I'm done with the frustrations and I'm not spending anymore money on them.

By the way, I already have a P3 in my truck (which I LOVE) so there's one step I wouldn't have to do.

Some folks have drilled a couple holes all the way through the whole surge brake coupler. Put a couple 5/8" bolts through it, and you should be fine.

I just welded my surge section of the hitch solid

K.I.S.S. principle if it's for a 23 Baja....

TieDown 660 Surge Actuator (set up for discs w/integral reverse lockout)
DeeMax or Kodiak Dacromet disc brake kit
Tiedown brake line kit
3- 4" Grade 5 bolts
Zip-ties
An afternoon and beverage of your choice.
But that's my opinion and advice you didn't have to pay for....

A quick check shows a 23' Outlaw at 4200lbs. 70ish gallons of fuel is about 600lbs. Trailer is a rough 1200, so that's about 6000lbs. I don't know what to tell you about axles, give the folks at Dexter a call for those.

Going to electric brakes for a 23' boat is like buying a dually and a gooseneck to tow a riding mower.

EoH brakes is NEVER overkill.

Let me know how well you get the rig stopped with surge brakes once your GM truck blows a brake line (which they are known to do; common failure point on GM trucks from the 90s on up.)

Well, if a fistful of shift lever and a foot mash of e-brake don't get the surge actuator to kick in, I'll close my eyes and scream "Like a Good Neighbor"....:party-smiley-004:

Funny; yes...
...and I'd probably do the exact same thing.

However, locking up the rear tires with either method will not do much good at all when the the rig begins to jack-knife, and the surge brakes release.

We the manual override on electric or EoH you can drag the rig to a stop.

And a $700-1000 upgrade to EoH brakes sounds much better than a $3000 transmission.

I completely understand this way of thinking, however I'm not converting to disc or electric to make sure I stop. I'm getting rid of the drums, plain and simple. I've had about every problem with them under the sun and I'm done with them. Sure, I could completely overhaul them and start over, but I don't even want to do that. I just want to ditch them and upgraded trailer brakes can be a nice thing to add to the listing when the day comes to sell it and go bigger.

Been there done that. Rusty brake lines in the frame rail behind the gas tank. (On my old truck) That's just another day around here.

I'm all for updating to disc brakes (have them, love them), but if you're planning on selling, electric brakes may be a detractor to Joe Sixpack with a 1/2 ton or large SUV (and no IBC) looking for an entry level performance boat.
Plenty of 1/2 tons rated to tow that boat on the car lots around here with trailer package and no brake controller....

Excellent point, I didn't really think of that considering every other 16 year old has a diesel truck these days. Not drinking the EoH Koolaid would allow me to not have to cut off my hitch and buy a new one, but it doesn't help with the master cylinder issue. Hunting up a replacement master cylinder for this atwood hitch may be fun, but I'll see what I can do.

Are you getting a loud clunk when you stop or start to back up? Mine does. I, like you, want to change over at least to disc brakes this fall if my boat is not sold by then. However, I want the current crummy drum brakes to at least work until one or the other happens. I ordered a new master cylinder and a push rod assembly kit. Below are the numbers for Atwood actuators

For most applications, if trailer is later than 1988 these numbers will work. Master cylinder is not that expensive. Hardest part in replacing them for me is getting up and down to bleed them.
85841 - drum brake master cylinder
85852 - push rod assembly kit (found this and the master cylinder {85841} to be cheaper that the below all inclusive kit)
85837 - drum brake master cylinder and push rod assembly kit (hard to find this kit and more expensive that the other two above together).

Got them both and a new shock absorber (85830) at BoatStoreUSA.com. Cheapest prices that I could find online.

This is just a stop gap measure to get me through the summer and early fall. If I still have the boat in the fall, when I convert over, I will probably buy a new master cylinder for disc, lines and a reverse lock out solenoid along with the brakes and should be good to go. Surely, you don't have to replace the actuator housing if you switch from drum to disc, do you???

It's been a while since I was up on drum vs. disc, but I'm remembering that disc needs 1600 psi, and drum 1000 psi to operate right. Is that only for EoH, or also for surge?

Keep in mind on the actuators, that long before Detroit started including them, folks bought them and installed them aftermarket. I don't know that that would be a big detriment to resell of your boat.

Surge brake pressures are much lower than EoH, only 400-600psi if memory serves.

Edit- a quick Google search has one site putting surge pressures at 400-800psi, another puts them at 700psi in "panic stop" situations.

EoH has up to 1600psi actuators.

Think I found the answer to my question.

Champion Trailer states in their disc brake install instructions that you can use your existing coupler, but it will need modifications.
First, they say that you should never puncture the residual valve in the master cylinder. It needs to be removed completely for higher flow (assuming you want to use your drum master cylinder and not buy a disc master cylinder).
Second, the brass tubing adapter at the rear of the master cylinder should have a minimum orifice diameter of .0625” or larger.
Third, a reverse solenoid lock out valve will normally be required.

Pretty simple mods to make the conversion.

I like my electric brakes. No brake lines to rust or leak, no expensive EOH actuator. Fully adjustable stopping, cheap parts. Simple to fix/replace.

With either all electric or EOH, just having those trailer brakes when backing down a steep ramp is worth it's weight in gold. No more dragging those front truck tires. :)

I am ordering the stuff to convert my Eagle trailer over to full electric. I hate surge brakes with a passion and my whole system is shot. I like the adjust-ability and better response of the electrics. Plus I get to get rid of the dang "clunk" every time I start or stop. Plus I get to go to a coupler that just drops on and hooks up, no little lever to hold up, no having to jerk the boat forwards after backing into the garage so coupler will release.

I see no downside to this conversion.

Well, looks like the thing to do is convert my hitch over to a disc master cylinder, pick up a reverse solenoid, and carry on about my day. Champion had the disc master cylinder.

I ended up buying my Kodiak disc setup through a local Redneck Trailer distributor. It was actually really cheap.

Be sure to buy the deluxe reversing solenoid. It's only a few bucks more. It relieves all brake line pressure when energized, whereas the standard reversing solenoid will trap brake line pressure. If you stop on a down hill incline and need to backup, the trailer brakes will be applied and will not bleed off when you go into reverse with the standard model and you'll have to figure out how to disengage the trailer brakes just to back up. The deluxe model eliminates all that.

Excellent info. Thanks

Received a confirmation from etrailer.com that my order has been processed and will be shipped within 7 days. That would have been nice to know. Guess I'm going to the lake with no brakes. lol

Just a quick update to anyone that may search this thread on down the road... I installed the Kodiak disc set up, which was an absolute breeze. I was even able to bend my current brake lines to go straight to the caliper. I did install Kodiak Red-Eye bearing greasers, and I will say that while they stay cleaner, I prefer the bearing buddy brand. These stick out too far, and I'm not confident about how much grease is in them, no to mention they are such a tight tolerance, I'm not sure I will be able to get them back out without destroying them to check the preload on the bearings either. As for the disc brake master cylinder, I haven't swapped that out yet, so I have the hitch locked and have pulled it to the lake twice with no brakes. I will re-update after I finish the job. For the reverse solenoid, I'm thinking I will put it on with a switch instead of tying it into my reverse lights. Since I bought the cheaper solenoid (already ordered before I found out what the difference is) I think it would be better to hit the switch before I have any pressure on the brakes in case I get in a position where I have to put it in reverse after I already have some pressure in the lines. All in all, I think I will end up having around 750ish in the disc brake kit, bearing buddies, bearings/seals, master cylinder kit, and solenoid. If I don't ever have to fool with another drum brake on this trailer, its worth every penny. .

I have the same brake solenoid switch on my trailer. Ran a wire from the cigarette lighter to a lighted switch on the console. Turn it on just before I need to back up. Been working fine for many years