Would ASD's work on a 36' Apache?
 

I know some guys have messed around with their X dimensions on 36's. I remember hearing that shorties don't work so well but Frank had good results with his X adjustment. I have always thought the asd bravo conversion would be sweet. Then I got to looking at how deep my X is started thinking that a surface drive setup might adversely mess with handling.

I currently have a very mild setup but before I start changing stuff around I want to have a game plan so I don't go one direction and get into it and realize I needed to go a different direction.

Curious what u guys think.

Thanks,

Josh

TTT anybody?

I think its a great idea. Can't believe no one has ever put one on a 36 or a 41.

I believe Arneson drives on a 41 has been done.

There is a 41 in Europe with Arnesons my guess is they are ASD 8 but there are pictures on here I posted a while back.

Was it successfull?

I am thinking long term (I'm a planner). At the moment I am doing a top end refresh of current power but in 3 seasons or so I will have to do full rebuilds and figure I will go to 540's. My boat doesn't have external hydraulic steering so I will need to add that with the increased speed. Then, the Bravo's will obviously be the weak link.

So, once I spend 25-30k for B-maxes or imco's and then 6k for External Hydraulic steering and then the cost to find another 5-8mph out of the setup (which I figure asd will add over a bmax) plus a rooster tail (priceless) on a sidebyside setup I figure I am at the 50k or so for the asd's.

I just wish there was a used market to find them and I would get them sooner than later.

did you put it in the picture section?

Buy this project boat and pull the arneson's off http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3984&viewitem=

I see them pop up on craigslist sometimes.

I have actually been watching for asd boats that I could just switch out power and drives and then put my stuff on the other. The issue is I am pretty sure that the asd is not plug and play so there would be some transom cutting involved on mine and some transom filling back in on another boat that I would potentially pickup.

Just call Rik at Arneson and he will answer all of your questions.

They work on a flatdeck Cig

here is the thread where Cigarette man posted the pics of the 41 with arnesons in italy
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/a...ml#post2007638

I don't know how it performed. Seldom seen setup.

I'll send ya a pm when I have a couple minutes. That would be a very comparable running surface.

Thanks

Cig 38' and even a 41' Apache have different rockers on the bottom. Midship forward the boat is almost the same but it's not 1:1. I wish we could have some real world results on a 36', I just don't have the the funds or the patience it takes to dial in a setup like that.

That's some nice bling you got there!

I have been wondering this exact same thing. Rik told me they would work well on a 36 but I was never able to find someone who tried it.

I'm in the same situation, I'm already at power limit for XR's and want to go faster.....

They work on every other boat ever tried, why not an Apache. Picking up 8-10 MPH and reliabilty....no brainer

For me I'm more concerned with setup and dialing them in. I don't doubt they will work.

If someone already did them and dialed them in, the guess work and trial and error would be gone.

I don't necessarily want to be the guinea pig. I live on Lake Erie my summers are short enough... LOL

I can understand your concerns about setup work but for the most part, the only "setup" is propeller selection as there are no "spacers" to keep trying in search of the perfect X dimension as the Arneson is trimable and you reach the proper height by the touch of the trim button.

Hering has a propeller exchange program and with a particular boats details we can both advise a pretty close propeller size to start with eliminating the guessing game.

Thanks for the info Rik, I remember talking to you about this before.

I do think about converting to ASD's every time I have a drive problem. Which seems to be too often.

Which drive would you recommend for a 36' Apache. The bravo conversion kit the 6 I think or the 7's.

I currently run 600sc's which have been reworked, when I am done I hope to be about 750hp a side. But like anyone would like room for growth, since I'm never happy.



I

The #7M has replaced the ASD6 and they cost the same so #7M all the way.. I rate them conservatively at 850 hp.

Rik, how much lower does the engine need to be in the boat?

Apache's, unlike Cigarettes, have a stringer underneath the engine just off to the side. In most cases the stringer is notched to clear oil pans and this is with a low X dimention from the factory.

Before I raised my X 2" the oil pans had 1/2" clearance to an already notched stringer that was approx 1/2" high under the pan. http://s706.photobucket.com/albums/w...oject-X012.jpg

It really all comes down to the the engine placement or X dimension as the engines can be mounted accordingly.

The most I've seen on a V hull like this (low X dimension) is 1" but as I noted it is all about the engine placement and there are so many different placements out there.

Not dismissing the stringer but it does not serve much of a purpose being there if it was an issue.

I'm not sure what that implies? Are you saying it can just be cut out because the drive manufacturer thinks it serves no purpose??

Some stringers are notched but they can't be removed according to the builder. This is a consideration for anyone wanting to install the product and I don't think it's something to just brush off. Not having done an install on a 36' Apache, these are the kind of things one may run into.

What engine centerline and height on a 36' Apache must be used for the Arneson system? This will easiliy answer my question and provide answers for the other members thinking of installing your product.

What about drop boxes like on the Cigarette in this thread? What about turning them in to simulate a staggered set uo in side by side applications?

Good point Panther, I'm not sure my motors would be able to be moved down any. My stringers are not notched and to get a bigger oil pan in the now I have to have one custom made. I tried to put 12 qt pans on with the new motor but they hit that stringer. I need to notch the pan to make them fit.

Rik where would the engine placement have to be?

Thanks

That's an interesting setup on that cig. Looks like that would be the way to go.

That's exactly what had to be done on my 10 qt oil pans. When I bought the boat some moron used a hammer to notch the pan so when I got the boat I had my fabricator do it the right way.

However, when I raised the X that would no longer have been an issue but I did have to slightly modify the engine hatch for the blowers. Aloso, when I redid the X dimension I made notch a bit higher, alomost back to normal. :drink:
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/w...oject-X038.jpg
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/w...ect-X003-1.jpg

The engine center line distance would not have to change so if the engines are on a 34.5" or 35" or?? that would not change.

The vertical crankshaft centerline distance in relation to the boats bottom might change depending upon the transom angle as well as the x dimension of the drive units. The crankshaft center line from the bottom of the hull would be roughly 13.5" to 14" depending upon the transom angle. The higher the angle the higher this number would be.

Now you for example raised your X by raising your engines in the process so I would say what ever you had raised the engines would have to be lowered back down.

Addressing the larger drop box ASD8 drive units whereby one can mount them at an angle and thus change the engine crankshaft center line in relation to the propeller centerline. These would be a major setup as the engines have to be mounted farther forward in the boat by some 18", the vertical height will have to change in the upward direction and the cost is substantially higher as is the weight.

Thanks Rik. My crankshaft centerline was 14 1/4", I raised it to 16 1/2". The older 36' Apache's that were rigged for Mirage Plus props had the 14" X's and the newer ones rigged for Bravo I props were rigged at the 16" X. I raised my X on the advice of the builder and had his support through out the entire process. I didn't go into uncharted territory with the prop height and gained 4 mph for under $2K.

Thanks for answering my question in detail, hopefully it helps some of the others thinking about installing your product. I'm looking forward to seeing some results if/when someone decides to do it.

Sounds like we are pretty close then to what the Apache's were setup with..

I think around 97' they made the X change so the older boats should be ok but the 97 and newer would need to have engines lowered. A simple measurement for the other Apache owners could help them along.

As far as transom angle goes, don't quote me on this but I thihnk it's a standard 12* transom. I can confirm that with the builder.

The "typical" transom angle on the older boats is 12 to 13 degrees.

Rik, the main difference on the bottom between a 38' Cig, 41' Apache and 36' Apache is for the most part the rocker. We know the 41' Apache came from the 38' Cig but the 36' Apache was made from a damned 41'. Since it was a simple damning of the mold the bottom was flat and had to be worked/faired so the appropriate rocker could be put back in.

I think a 36' Apache is closer to a Cig. Cafe Racer, which is what it was designed to compete with. What kind of results have you seen on Cafe's?

I have a 36' Cig with Arnesons on it.. Has a great running attitude the guy says...