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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by thisistank
Like I said prior...I know theres been T/S cigs that have spun sunk but there's been a Formula and a Donzi for sale on Ebay recently that have spun/partial sank as well. It's not brand specific is my point.
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by Fanatic
I will listen to the guys that race them and listen to what they have to say as they probably know better than most.
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
The Gladiator that Tres uses in his Performance Boating School was rolled before he bought it. If I remember correctly, he said that it was a fairly low speed (45-50 mph) rollover.
That said, Tres can keep these boats in shape & will teach you the how's & why's of the sliding & rolling. He shows you what to look for, how to keep the boat safe & under control and most importantly; how to recover from a potential slide & roll. |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Well said.
Originally Posted by Top Banana
I'd like to put my two cents in on this, and I apologize up front if I offend someone...but:
First of all as a business owner, I can understand the reluctance of Cigarette to spend the money trying to compete on the circuit as it is run today....and that includes all organizations. I don't know Mr Braver at all, but I am grateful he stepped in and kept this great brand alive. Cigarette was bred for, and their reputation was made, in Ocean Racing....that sport no longer exists. The boats may be offshore and they may actually be in the ocean, but the foundation of the sport was built on long distance races over open ocean water, in all kinds of conditions. Now let me be clear, this is not the fault of the racers....they would race anything, anywhere. They race under these calm water conditions close to shore, because that is where the organizations ruled that they would. Cigarette is a boat company with a core product of a deep V hull. To win in the present venues, they would have to build an all out flat water racer to compete with Fountain. Or go another route, and design and build a cat to go for the overall speed title. Neither move would do anything to enhance their strength as a brand....they already are THE BRAND. The only way to get the boat companies back into racing with big boats is to change the format. Even if the existing organizations allowed one class to actually race offshore at one of the existing race sites. Next race held by any group in Miami, let this ocean racing class, start before all the others and go to Nassau, 185 miles of ocean conditions. The boat companies would know that they actually had to build a race boat that would survive regardless of conditions. They would start building boats again that the public at large would like to hear about, because it would advance the whole industry in matters of safety at sea. Sponsors might even see an opportunity here. The playing field would open up again to everyone, not just the big bucks teams. Winning would now involve navigation, preparation of the equipment, and real mental toughness on the part of the racers. Racers who could keep going when there were no fans or cameras around. Only the other racers would know if you pulled back the throttles, and took it easy when the waves got big. It was in these types of conditions that Don Aronow got the nickname "The Animal". Over the past couple of years I have met many of the new racers and they are no different than the old guys....they just need the opportunity to race in a real ocean race. Ask some of the old guys....we are not trying to be smug or know it all's, we just know what great races we had, and wish with all our hearts that today's racers could experience for themselves the same....believe me you would never go back. Guys like Steve Berk, Bob Saccenti, Mark McManus, Steve Stepp, Pepe Nunez and Brownie will tell you the truth....if someone would create an ocean race again, Cigarette and a lot of other companies would jump right back in. |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by Stormrider
Agreed!!!!
So what if there are no spectators? how easy is it to see the action of the current races from land? I think an open ocean long distance race w/ choppers following would make for a great tv race!!! That was their first event and they loved it. They sat on the deck at a restaurant and had a great view of the action while they sipped drinks. Cig seems to be doing fine without racing, but perhaps that's why they hired Ben from Fountain. |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
If you all think a twin step Top Gun spins quickly, a very rare :eek: 2000 (all of 6 made) single step Top Gun is worse, trust me. :eek:
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Read the new powerboat with Benny Roberson, they are building a 45' race boat.
That should be interesting Wild |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by dhlaw
I can assure you that Phil spun that boat...maybe not in a race but he spun it. I say that because every boat that I have bought that has been raced has been over, now some would say that it was due to inexperience but that would not explain why Tres, Bob, Todd, etc went over also. The Virgin boat was the worst. First, Tres got sideways a few times in testing, then Kevin King and Gil Leiber almost got killed in a GLSCS race, the Diamond Dave and Val spun, and then Bruce and I got tossed..... That boat will spank you the minute you stop paying close attention. My Super V went over with the Rodriguez team, then with Bob Bull so many times he joked about painting a canopy on the bottom!!! Brian Hollis took a few, Dick Simon took a nice swim with Stinson on the sticks, on and on and on....... I think quite a few Cigs have been over in testing and fear of hurting resale has kept lips shut tight. Now this is not to say that in the right hands these boats can be competitive, but the right hands are Todd and Tres or Bob...... the rest of us mere mortals better know how to swim after a 80mph hit or how to breathe on oxygen inverted until the cabin fills up enough to push the hatch open. Thats a fact.
Take a look and tell me what went wrong..... slow turn, no interruption in water (we were in 1st), no wacky control inputs.... Its a design flaw http://media.putfile.com/ejection Jacky |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by TexasCowboy
fountians are better race boats then cigarette. there hull design is much more advanced then cigarette. plus
Thanks for the input Reggie!!!! |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by TwinStepGun
How many of both have you owned or driven, and for how long?
brenden meet phuctard, phuctard meet brenden :evilb: |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by TexasCowboy
fountians are better race boats then cigarette. there hull design is much more advanced then cigarette. plus
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by Comanche3Six
They are like Texas Cowboys....6 inch belt buckle and a 2 inch pecker.
:drink: :drink: |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by TexasCowboy
yeah comanche let me know if u need any more viagra refills
Line dance off to the Fountain forum where your comments will be appreciated about Reggies floating flakeboard. You will never ride for 8 seconds here trying to put Cigarette down. Shooooooe! |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by grafikworx
Yo texascowboy. you have like 4 Post ,and all of them insulting. starting with onesickgladiator in the let the work begin on the 20 cig. thread. whats your problem?
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by TexasCowboy
fountians are better race boats then cigarette. there hull design is much more advanced then cigarette. plus
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Otis if you are talking about the old Virgin Gladiator that boat has been every which way but upright since Tres sold it for Todd. I watch it spin twice pitching the guys. Something was changed on that boat before it left Tres' shop. Some secret solution to its problems is missing. I don't know what it is or how much you would have to pay Tres. But he is the only one who knows. And good luck getting any info for free from him...
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by CIG3
Otis if you are talking about the old Virgin Gladiator that boat has been every which way but upright since Tres sold it for Todd. I watch it spin twice pitching the guys. Something was changed on that boat before it left Tres' shop. Some secret solution to its problems is missing. I don't know what it is or how much you would have to pay Tres. But he is the only one who knows. And good luck getting any info for free from him...
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by CMG
maybe the professional ability to operate a race boat??
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
No, its about testing testing testing and having your close calls out of the sight of the public so that people dont see what happens. That boat spent alot of time at Lake X..... There is a secret to running it safely and Tres and a few others have it figured out..... by trial and error. You arent born with those skills you acquire them through experience........... Expereinece in step hulls means gettingthe shiznit scared out of you. I know Tres went over in my Super V at Lake X, what would make me think that the same didnt happen with the Virgin boat??
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by CIG3
Otis if you are talking about the old Virgin Gladiator that boat has been every which way but upright since Tres sold it for Todd. I watch it spin twice pitching the guys. Something was changed on that boat before it left Tres' shop. Some secret solution to its problems is missing. I don't know what it is or how much you would have to pay Tres. But he is the only one who knows. And good luck getting any info for free from him...
The boat left Martin offshore in as is condition from the last race in Key west. It went directly to Cigarette where they had it for 6 months before it was sold. Nothing had been changed except props. Tres have given people the right info to get the boat handling and turning , They have other people setting up there boat, and those others think they know better how to prepare and operate it there own way because everyones an expert. Do you think we want people to have a ill handling boat? It's always the boats fault, owners and drivers never make mistakes! Maybe ask someone that has taken the school and they will tell you how easy it is to get a 36 out of control! Tres is always available for phone calls, he has never charged anyone I know for information. I don't know where you come from with these insinuations, but I don't like it one bit! CMG said it all "maybe the professional ability to operate a race boat??" Well said. |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by dhlaw
No, its about testing testing testing and having your close calls out of the sight of the public so that people dont see what happens. That boat spent alot of time at Lake X..... There is a secret to running it safely and Tres and a few others have it figured out..... by trial and error. You arent born with those skills you acquire them through experience........... Expereinece in step hulls means gettingthe shiznit scared out of you. I know Tres went over in my Super V at Lake X, what would make me think that the same didnt happen with the Virgin boat??
Tres never had a close call in the Gladiator. Tres and Todd were 2001 National and World Championship in that Gladiator! |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
I think there also may be a misconception that spinning means being a poor operator........ That couldnt be further from the truth. I know Tres and Jacky, I know that Tres knows how to slide a TS safely, I know that few people besides him can operate that boat at the edge. Tres and Todd are the team in a TS. If you watch the onboards in that boat you can see the deliberate, cautious and calculated work they do in the cockpit. Unfortunately, the rest of us get caught up in the panic of therace and step over the edge. Tres has always said that patience is the key to success. Not rushing to take the lead but getting your tempo, feeling the conditions, and waiting and picking off the competition one by one. Needless to say, I wasnt able to exercise patience!!!
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by JM94
Brett,
Tres never had a close call in the Gladiator. Tres and Todd were 2001 National and World Championship in that Gladiator! |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
dhlaw,
You are right, the first three races were in the Top Gun and the rest of the season in the Gladiator. Jacky :D |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Have you been to the Cigarette factory lately. there is one badass looking boat there that doesn't look like it is setup for your average evening cruise :rolleyes:
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by h20 toie
Have you been to the Cigarette factory lately. there is one badass looking boat there that doesn't look like it is setup for your average evening cruise :rolleyes:
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by JM94
dhlaw,
You are right, the first three races were in the Top Gun and the rest of the season in the Gladiator. Jacky :D hi jacky, how are you guys i hope well happy holidays to you/tres and the family/ jr mike |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by dhlaw
Does it have a beak??????
.. :D :D Then it must be a 38' and called a 42! |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by h20 toie
Have you been to the Cigarette factory lately. there is one badass looking boat there that doesn't look like it is setup for your average evening cruise :rolleyes:
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by dhlaw
Does it have a beak??????
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Anybody can turn the screws & bolt the bolts...We pay guys like Tres for knowledge & little "secrets" whats wrong with that ?
That being said...Tres doesnt know me from Adam but has come to the phone several times to help me with stupid questions. I have ALOT of respect for that !....Phil has also. 2 topnotch experts in my opinion. |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by h20 toie
Have you been to the Cigarette factory lately. there is one badass looking boat there that doesn't look like it is setup for your average evening cruise :rolleyes:
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
i could be wrong, but didnt 3, if not all 4 (but i think 3) of the 2000 twin step F-2's roll or sink racing?? Including LS.... The thought of racing our F-2 has been shot around but that stat makes me a little nervous
Steve jr |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by thisistank
That's the new 45 right? They are working on some "options" with that boat.....I guess we'll see what unfolds.
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by h20 toie
No beak but it does have an enclosed cockpit and big motors :D
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Originally Posted by CIG3
Otis if you are talking about the old Virgin Gladiator that boat has been every which way but upright since Tres sold it for Todd. I watch it spin twice pitching the guys. Something was changed on that boat before it left Tres' shop. Some secret solution to its problems is missing. I don't know what it is or how much you would have to pay Tres. But he is the only one who knows. And good luck getting any info for free from him...
NO, That is not the boat I am interested in. I have had nothing but kind and professional service from Tres and Jackie and Tres has helped me out in the past with his knowledge of rehabbing older Guns w/o billing me or turning me away !! |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Right on Top Banana -
And I might add that my 88 Cafe is still as solid as new - I wonder how long those light and thin hulled Fountains will last. They are built for river racing not ocean pounding. Its aslo risky to run a series that had to re-invent itself over the lase three years and sponsors like to see stablity and crowds - Ocean racing is impossible to view unless its on TV and that is where the REAL sponsorship money is - "TV rights" Give it some time. Mclarens F1 team got whooped the year the built a new factory but look at them now. |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Wow that is crazy it didnt look like u were even turning remotly hard, that is sketchy..
Originally Posted by dhlaw
I can assure you that Phil spun that boat...maybe not in a race but he spun it. I say that because every boat that I have bought that has been raced has been over, now some would say that it was due to inexperience but that would not explain why Tres, Bob, Todd, etc went over also. The Virgin boat was the worst. First, Tres got sideways a few times in testing, then Kevin King and Gil Leiber almost got killed in a GLSCS race, the Diamond Dave and Val spun, and then Bruce and I got tossed..... That boat will spank you the minute you stop paying close attention. My Super V went over with the Rodriguez team, then with Bob Bull so many times he joked about painting a canopy on the bottom!!! Brian Hollis took a few, Dick Simon took a nice swim with Stinson on the sticks, on and on and on....... I think quite a few Cigs have been over in testing and fear of hurting resale has kept lips shut tight. Now this is not to say that in the right hands these boats can be competitive, but the right hands are Todd and Tres or Bob...... the rest of us mere mortals better know how to swim after a 80mph hit or how to breathe on oxygen inverted until the cabin fills up enough to push the hatch open. Thats a fact.
Take a look and tell me what went wrong..... slow turn, no interruption in water (we were in 1st), no wacky control inputs.... Its a design flaw. http://media.putfile.com/ejection |
Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
:rolleyes:
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Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
Why do you think that Fountain is in business? They made a name in racing and Reggie throws money to keep that name. Sure, it may be a little unfair that he stacks a starting grid with his boats. If any other manuf. felt that they could take the market from Reggie by doing the same, don't you think they would?
If the races venue changed to open ocean, I imagine that Fountain would build a hull that would dominate there as well. Cigarette may very well be the icon. Fountain is still the fastest... |
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