Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Why doesn't Cigarette race in superboat? I saw the superboat races the other day on Outdoor Network and was disapointed not to see any Cigs only beaks. Whats the deal?

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

That race was in Panama City. Mostly beaks. It proves that if throw enough money at anything you can eventually own it. That is what Reggie wanted and now that is what Reggie has.

I guess we have to be thankful that he wanted to be king of offshore Deep "V" racing network. Otherwise I do not think there would be as much participation.

I believe Rio Roses was the last major Cig race boat and now they have turned to Reggie for their hulls. Another important contributing factor to remember is that essentially Mercury owns Fountain. A lot more money in that camp to support racing.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Dont get me started on a rant....... Cigarette has a problem with their step hulls. They handle like schitt and frankly are dangerous at race speeds. In a poker run scenario or pleasure use it is not that much of an issue, but under the pressure of race speeds it sucks. I cannot think of a person that has raced a Cigarette that has not been pitched into the water. The list is long and distinguished of those who have been tossed.... and the ones that say they havent are either lying or havent pushed the boat. Having said that, Cigarette needs to invest some $$ into R&D for a new bottom. The funny thing about Fountains is that when they do spin they stay flat..... Cigs just roll. I would rather slide than go over!!! Maybe Skip needs to take a ride with someone at race speed and turns, they should even let him steer!!! \

By the way, I am on my 4th Cig in 3 years..........

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

cuz don got shot...and the new owners are bean counters(punks) instead of racers(bad azzes)

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Wow I didn't know that. It is sad to think about.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Have patience my son. :D

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I saw an all white canopied Gladiator being tested at Haulover a few weeks back. It sure wasnt a poker run or pleasure boat. We will have to wait and see

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I wish there were some Cigarettes out there as well. From a business standpoint it's not economical in the least. Most boat companies have a hard enough time staying out of the red as it is. These days it seems who ever dumps the most money into racing comes out the winner.

Example: I give 100% credit to the Bacardi team for their skills, team, and overall accomplishments. It would be MUCH harder for them to do what they have without the ENORMOUS budget they have. Tons of extra motors, drives, tools, etc, are at their fingertips if a problem should arise. Most of the other teams don't have this luxury and if they break chances are the weekend is over.

I don't see Cigarette dumping North of 40k (per race) for races that get little exposure, and are barely watched by their potential buyers (besides KW). Most of their real buyers are on Poker Runs or other powerboating events where you can see and ride on the product (Amreican Muscle I II & III).


Although there are some rumors floating around about a new Cigarette that may change this. ;)

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Potenial buyers want Cig to be number 1. They want Cig to crush the competition like the old days. Cig doesn't need Mercury, they have Zul , Sterling and other bad azz engine builders. I hope they enter the arena because I think they can afford a huge racing budget. I also think they can't afford not to.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Did anyone notice the "Wanted" Cigarette in Key West, the Cigarette logo was covered by a "Pepsi" logo...so much for factory support.. :rolleyes:

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

The logo on my Super V was covered up by a Martin Offshore logo as a thankyou to Skip and his support. There was also a blindfolded squirrel reaching for a nut on the sides and deck that was another thankyou to Skip...... After the win in Savannah Skip made the comment that "every once in a while a blind squirrel will find a nut"......... I wish him the best of luck in any racing endevours, and I hope that he rides in his own boats testing. Maybe then he will "get it".......

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Dhlaw, What does CMS stand for? Thats a great looking boat and congats on your win. I can't believe Skip is such an A-hole. So now wonder no body is racing Cigs. Their step hull sucks and so does Skip.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Easy on the product and easy on Skip. Skip and Cig just made a big move relocating the factory recently. Maybe their priorities are on other things other than racing. I know mine would be.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

CMS Mecahnical is owned by Bob Bull (APBA) and that picture was taken with Bob racing. The Super V win and subsequent comments were made to Bob not me. I dont think that Cigs suck, and I think that Skip is just a car dealer at the end of the day...............

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Those car dealers and attorneys both seem to get alot of negative press.:D

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I'd like to put my two cents in on this, and I apologize up front if I offend someone...but:

First of all as a business owner, I can understand the reluctance of Cigarette to spend the money trying to compete on the circuit as it is run today....and that includes all organizations. I don't know Mr Braver at all, but I am grateful he stepped in and kept this great brand alive.

Cigarette was bred for, and their reputation was made, in Ocean Racing....that sport no longer exists.

The boats may be offshore and they may actually be in the ocean, but the foundation of the sport was built on long distance races over open ocean water, in all kinds of conditions.

Now let me be clear, this is not the fault of the racers....they would race anything, anywhere. They race under these calm water conditions close to shore, because that is where the organizations ruled that they would.

Cigarette is a boat company with a core product of a deep V hull. To win in the present venues, they would have to build an all out flat water racer to compete with Fountain. Or go another route, and design and build a cat to go for the overall speed title. Neither move would do anything to enhance their strength as a brand....they already are THE BRAND.

The only way to get the boat companies back into racing with big boats is to change the format. Even if the existing organizations allowed one class to actually race offshore at one of the existing race sites. Next race held by any group in Miami, let this ocean racing class, start before all the others and go to Nassau, 185 miles of ocean conditions.

The boat companies would know that they actually had to build a race boat that would survive regardless of conditions. They would start building boats again that the public at large would like to hear about, because it would advance the whole industry in matters of safety at sea. Sponsors might even see an opportunity here.

The playing field would open up again to everyone, not just the big bucks teams. Winning would now involve navigation, preparation of the equipment, and real mental toughness on the part of the racers. Racers who could keep going when there were no fans or cameras around. Only the other racers would know if you pulled back the throttles, and took it easy when the waves got big. It was in these types of conditions that Don Aronow got the nickname "The Animal".

Over the past couple of years I have met many of the new racers and they are no different than the old guys....they just need the opportunity to race in a real ocean race.

Ask some of the old guys....we are not trying to be smug or know it all's, we just know what great races we had, and wish with all our hearts that today's racers could experience for themselves the same....believe me you would never go back.

Guys like Steve Berk, Bob Saccenti, Mark McManus, Steve Stepp, Pepe Nunez and Brownie will tell you the truth....if someone would create an ocean race again, Cigarette and a lot of other companies would jump right back in.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Dlaw, Im looking at an 2002 open cockpit Gladiator right now that was an F-2 boat, I want to race it in P-3 class in O.P.A. Are you claiming that the Cig wont be competitve or that I will be at a disadvantage in this Cig over another brand ?? Please fill me in more on this. Ive owned Straight bottom Cigs but never a stepped hull. I know they all run by me in almost any water on the poker run circut.

Bob

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Great Post , Top Bannana !

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Agreed!!!!
So what if there are no spectators? how easy is it to see the action of the current races from land?
I think an open ocean long distance race w/ choppers following would make for a great tv race!!!

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Agreed!

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I respectfully disagree. It's a different world and Poker Runs now dominate the performance boat scene. One need only pick up Hot Boat, Powerboat or read OSO to see the tremendous disparity in interest, participation and coverage.

While taking offshore racing "offshore", I believe you'll further erode interest in racing. [I say this with all due respect to past great guys who did race this way]

I doubt many companies would see true old style offshore racing as much of a marketing tool in todays world. There's just no fan base. Poker Runs on the other hand continue to grow.

Every business works with in a limited marketing budget. Where would you spend yours?

In short, I simply don't believe long distance, open ocean racing with even less media coverage and fewer fans in attendance, would entice Cigarette or any other company to jump into racing.

But hey, I've been wrong before......:)

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

My .02

Non-stepped Cigarettes rule...nothing beats the feel and predictability of them. They should have left them alone.
They were pure perfection and very safe even with big power going very fast.

Steps have messed up some great designs. I am looking for a good 38TG project boat right now.

The same goes for the old 10 Meter Fountains they were just fine with a pad for their size.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

[QUOTE=gripit]Potenial buyers want Cig to be number 1. They want Cig to crush the competition like the old days. Cig doesn't need Mercury, they have Zul , Sterling and other bad azz engine builders. I hope they enter the arena because I think they can afford a huge racing budget. I also think they can't afford not to.[/Q

yeah but wihtuot merc that means no merc sterndrives, no merc tabs, no merc props.........heh :D

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

[QUOTE=375stinger]more business for Konrad add martini tabs, hydromotive makes props...weisman makes a drive as good or better than a #6...all probably less than merc

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I wouldnt set foot in another Cig on a race course unless they fix the bottom or take the steps out. I think you better check your health insurance, get FreezeFrame to do onboards, and get a new lifeline...... your gonna need it!! That isnt a comment on your abilities, it is a fact of TS Cigs.... they spin and roll. All of them!!!! I promise you that.............

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I don't think its simply a matter of Merc supplying the components to Fountain - they have a vested interest in that particular brand since that for all intent and purpose own the brand. Sterling may have an interest in being a sponsor but isn't going to hand over the motors, parts and cash like Merc will do for Fountain.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Cigarette Racing Team hires Ben Robertson

Boating Industry
Tuesday October 4, 2005



OPA-LOCKA, Fla. – Cigarette Racing Team has brought boat racer and former Fountain Powerboats design engineer Ben Robertson on board, the company reported in a recent statement.

“While over the years, we have invested in our physical plant and technology, bringing Ben on board now represents our commitment to investing in people to continue to improve the quality of our product and take Cigarette to the next level,” stated Skip Braver, Cigarette Racing Team president and CEO.

Robertson, a three-time inductee into the APBA Hall of Champions, will be involved in the engineering and testing of Cigarettes and also with the development of pending new product introductions.

“This is a big move for me!” said Robertson, “Reggie and I have known each other for 35 years, but I was ready for a change. It’s exciting to be leaving an industry leader and going to an industry giant.”

......Looks to me like Cig is taking the next step, Steve

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Very true, I sponser The porsches for TPC racing and Team Lexus, even though my product protects the paint it saves them sponserchip dollars in the paint arena as they dont have to paint them as often (barring crashes) this also saves in decals and graphics..Merc and fountain are one and the same. If you look back to when AMF took over harley davidson, in 74 they started throwing out cookie cutter bikes, and the market was inundated with them. I think fountains are good boats, and they have a following but look at the market and what each used boat commands as opposed to another brand. my point being I handle my sponserships for these two teams at cost. I wind up losing some money for labor as manhours cant be replaced, I can comp them. If a engine builder wants to get his name out he does what is nessecary... A prime example is Jeff at JC Performance, he is a racer and build motors for race teams...One of the up and coming premier builders. Konrad sponsers the fountain of youth team, I'm quite sure that if another team approches them for drives at cost, they would help them for sponsership advertising... If you go to www.theracesite.com and look at the white porsche of TPC racing. there is my logo, I've gotten countless calls from that site. so my advertising has gone far.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Exactly re: BenR....Why else wouldn't they hire him? Cig will be racing next year. Wonder if BenR is sharing Fountain secrets at the dinner table?

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Dhlaw, I'm not arguing, but I don't believe Phil ever spun or rolled their T/S Gun (now Lucky Strike) while racing to the world championship in '00-'01. And did the Virgin boat spin or roll while racing? It had a pretty successful run.

I know the Rio Roses 45 rolled but that was because the driver jammed it into the corner too hard while Phil was on the sticks too hard. More driver/throttle error/mis-communication than anything there. That was the only spin and they pushed that thing VERY hard. Of course then you have to get into the age old arguement about the unsafeness of all stepped boats....If you push them too hard they'll spin.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Former Virgin gladiator spun and rolled in a turn in a GLSCS race at Lake St. Clair, MI in '02 or '03. Both ejected and uninjured. Minor damage to boat, primarily engine hatch.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

BenR is a marketing gimmic...Reggie holds the keys to the design shop...but you have to admit it does say something when Cigarette is looking to "Fountain" for design ideas...I think Reggie's best complement yet.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I can assure you that Phil spun that boat...maybe not in a race but he spun it. I say that because every boat that I have bought that has been raced has been over, now some would say that it was due to inexperience but that would not explain why Tres, Bob, Todd, etc went over also. The Virgin boat was the worst. First, Tres got sideways a few times in testing, then Kevin King and Gil Leiber almost got killed in a GLSCS race, the Diamond Dave and Val spun, and then Bruce and I got tossed..... That boat will spank you the minute you stop paying close attention. My Super V went over with the Rodriguez team, then with Bob Bull so many times he joked about painting a canopy on the bottom!!! Brian Hollis took a few, Dick Simon took a nice swim with Stinson on the sticks, on and on and on....... I think quite a few Cigs have been over in testing and fear of hurting resale has kept lips shut tight. Now this is not to say that in the right hands these boats can be competitive, but the right hands are Todd and Tres or Bob...... the rest of us mere mortals better know how to swim after a 80mph hit or how to breathe on oxygen inverted until the cabin fills up enough to push the hatch open. Thats a fact.

Take a look and tell me what went wrong..... slow turn, no interruption in water (we were in 1st), no wacky control inputs.... Its a design flaw.

http://media.putfile.com/ejection

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

:cool:

cigarette reflections ---


js
http://www.fotopress.us/bestof

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

That's some good footage. Again, I'm not arguing, but can you name a twin step boat (builder) that has raced hard that hasn't spun, or rolled???

You may be right, you may be wrong. But again, I think steps in general are more unsafe than non-steps. There's a sh!t load of really fast twin stepped Guns out there that run hard and haven't spun. If there was a huge flaw in the design wouldn't there be more pleasure spins? Not saying there's no one that has spun in a pleasure T/S gun but so have Donzi's, Outterlimits, Fountains, etc. etc. My point is that I don't think Cigarette has any more tendancy to spin than any other stepped boat. Nature of the beast.

Oh, and on the topic of Phil spinning a boat. He was very candid with me about rolling the Rio Roses boat. He however didn't think it was builder error what so-ever. I'd never heard him complain about (lucky strikes) Gun. He had nothing but praise for the way that boat handled and raced.

And I've watched the footage of Stinson barrel rolling the Speed Racer F-2 boat w/Dick. That I'm affraid was driver/throttle error. Even Sean will tell you that. And the video shows it too well. Too hot into the turn.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Pure perfection? The Twin step boats ride alot better and dont porpoise.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

How many of both have you owned or driven, and for how long?

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

I believe there was a nice non stepped gun in Va. for a good price last summer. Try a search in Va. Beach.

Re: Why doesn't Cigarette race?
 

Like I said prior...I know theres been T/S cigs that have spun sunk but there's been a Formula and a Donzi for sale on Ebay recently that have spun/partial sank as well. It's not brand specific is my point.