Originally Posted by thisistank

Like I said prior...I know theres been T/S cigs that have spun sunk but there's been a Formula and a Donzi for sale on Ebay recently that have spun/partial sank as well. It's not brand specific is my point.

Originally Posted by Fanatic

I will listen to the guys that race them and listen to what they have to say as they probably know better than most.

Originally Posted by Top Banana

I'd like to put my two cents in on this, and I apologize up front if I offend someone...but:

First of all as a business owner, I can understand the reluctance of Cigarette to spend the money trying to compete on the circuit as it is run today....and that includes all organizations. I don't know Mr Braver at all, but I am grateful he stepped in and kept this great brand alive.

Cigarette was bred for, and their reputation was made, in Ocean Racing....that sport no longer exists.

The boats may be offshore and they may actually be in the ocean, but the foundation of the sport was built on long distance races over open ocean water, in all kinds of conditions.

Now let me be clear, this is not the fault of the racers....they would race anything, anywhere. They race under these calm water conditions close to shore, because that is where the organizations ruled that they would.

Cigarette is a boat company with a core product of a deep V hull. To win in the present venues, they would have to build an all out flat water racer to compete with Fountain. Or go another route, and design and build a cat to go for the overall speed title. Neither move would do anything to enhance their strength as a brand....they already are THE BRAND.

The only way to get the boat companies back into racing with big boats is to change the format. Even if the existing organizations allowed one class to actually race offshore at one of the existing race sites. Next race held by any group in Miami, let this ocean racing class, start before all the others and go to Nassau, 185 miles of ocean conditions.

The boat companies would know that they actually had to build a race boat that would survive regardless of conditions. They would start building boats again that the public at large would like to hear about, because it would advance the whole industry in matters of safety at sea. Sponsors might even see an opportunity here.

The playing field would open up again to everyone, not just the big bucks teams. Winning would now involve navigation, preparation of the equipment, and real mental toughness on the part of the racers. Racers who could keep going when there were no fans or cameras around. Only the other racers would know if you pulled back the throttles, and took it easy when the waves got big. It was in these types of conditions that Don Aronow got the nickname "The Animal".

Over the past couple of years I have met many of the new racers and they are no different than the old guys....they just need the opportunity to race in a real ocean race.

Ask some of the old guys....we are not trying to be smug or know it all's, we just know what great races we had, and wish with all our hearts that today's racers could experience for themselves the same....believe me you would never go back.

Guys like Steve Berk, Bob Saccenti, Mark McManus, Steve Stepp, Pepe Nunez and Brownie will tell you the truth....if someone would create an ocean race again, Cigarette and a lot of other companies would jump right back in.

Originally Posted by Stormrider

Agreed!!!!
So what if there are no spectators? how easy is it to see the action of the current races from land?
I think an open ocean long distance race w/ choppers following would make for a great tv race!!!

Originally Posted by dhlaw

I can assure you that Phil spun that boat...maybe not in a race but he spun it. I say that because every boat that I have bought that has been raced has been over, now some would say that it was due to inexperience but that would not explain why Tres, Bob, Todd, etc went over also. The Virgin boat was the worst. First, Tres got sideways a few times in testing, then Kevin King and Gil Leiber almost got killed in a GLSCS race, the Diamond Dave and Val spun, and then Bruce and I got tossed..... That boat will spank you the minute you stop paying close attention. My Super V went over with the Rodriguez team, then with Bob Bull so many times he joked about painting a canopy on the bottom!!! Brian Hollis took a few, Dick Simon took a nice swim with Stinson on the sticks, on and on and on....... I think quite a few Cigs have been over in testing and fear of hurting resale has kept lips shut tight. Now this is not to say that in the right hands these boats can be competitive, but the right hands are Todd and Tres or Bob...... the rest of us mere mortals better know how to swim after a 80mph hit or how to breathe on oxygen inverted until the cabin fills up enough to push the hatch open. Thats a fact.

Take a look and tell me what went wrong..... slow turn, no interruption in water (we were in 1st), no wacky control inputs.... Its a design flaw

http://media.putfile.com/ejection

Originally Posted by TexasCowboy

fountians are better race boats then cigarette. there hull design is much more advanced then cigarette. plus

Originally Posted by TwinStepGun

How many of both have you owned or driven, and for how long?