restoring 20' cig.... NEED ur Thoughts!!! need info!!!
 

Hi all

so I picked up a basket case 20' foot cig and it will be dropped at my shop tomarrow... This one is as rough as they come and was touched in all the wrong ways.. #1 the first big fix the transom was cut! It was done to make an out board well.... They just glassed plywood between the storage compartments and cut a hole in the hatch between the hinges. #2 they glassed over the hin its a 1972 may have ben a brass tag that was pulled at that age.. #3 It looks like the engine bunks were removed there is only plywood stringers in the engine bay? #4 there has been a large hole cut in the back seat.



now I am know stranger to building cars and boats. but I know there are a lot of guys that fallow this brand and know the right and wrong way to restore a very early 20' cig..

so its time for me to do some asking...

#1 Where are the hin ID plates???? other then the transom hin

I have the old registration and a bill of sale and some random paper work... non have the hin #

#2 I think this boat was sold with a 350ci engine. was it ever sold with any thing other?

#3 is a 454 an acceptable repower? or is there a larger market for bone stock.

this was a jet drive boat but it seems like most 20's are now converted to outdrive.

#4 whats the best drive option for a 350?

#5 whats the best drive option for a 454?

#6 did the boat have engine bunks or was the motor bracketed off the plywood? can't be right.

thanks for any help...

P.S here is a link to my last project to bad I can post here,, did the full blister peal & triaxle carbon bottom job!!!
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/be...ght=35+bertram

Very nice job on the Bertrum. This should be a peice of cake for you.

I'll post a couple pics of my 20 glassdave has it out in Toledo, we have custom blower hatch made and will have a cowl mold with the pieces available as well for purchase if you want to make it a gladiator clone.

Very impressive work on the Bertram indeed.

Is this the one that was in Boynton?

If I were you I'd go with a 454 and Bravo 1 outdrives. Cheap to get, cheap to fix, and should be able to make/handle some good power back there.

Someone else can correct me if they feel otherwise, but there doesn't seem to be the same respect/market for boats that are purely original. Upgrades/improvements/ and "your take" on the boat always seem appreciated by the new buyer. Any of these old school race boats, offshores, etc. all seem to bring more money updated than purely original. I would make it your own. You can choose to respect the vintage and choose an interior or paint scheme to match the era, or you can go wild with it and totally update it with the most state of the art stuff you can find. The only problem with the latter is you'll end up spending a ton of cash that you'll never see back out of it...

I am not in the know here about the gladiator, being new to go fast boats... What is the history on the gladiator? are the gladiator clone boats the boats with the fiberglass molded wind screens, and modern style go fast seating? was there a scoop on the hatch of all the 20' foot boats, was it factory or an add on?

I'd love to see some photos of you boat. I do not know if my member level on the site will allow me look at you photos..

thanks for your reply


ps
is the gladiator cloned after a 36?

yes it the same boat... I think a member of this site also looked at it and posted on what he saw.. I did not see his post untill to day when searching for posts on 20's..

Ya nothing sounds like a tricked big block after it passes.... I think your right about upgrading a boat. seem boaters want to see a cig with some slick mods, more power, better drive and so on. seems to me there are some mods a lot of guys do to the 20's like seating, paint, and wind screen.

I tend to like to keep all bulk heads and stringers as the factory planed.. for a second due to the fact there's an O/B hanging off her, I thought about cutting the back seat out moving it back to the transom closing the hole in the transom and putting a bracket with two 300hp's O/B on her.. but it seem like more work , and just a down right sin... I am not a big fan of glass window mod's on fishing boats where they close the front windows but the fiber glass wind screen on a 20'cig looks good... but the factor wind screen is also slick so I am at this point torn... also I don't know if all the 20's had a scoop on the back she's a 1972 so she is a real old model. kinda round in the back may look good clean... I end up painting all my stuff, well I have to do it all, its a cost thing gotten good I can spray flag blue awlgrip and kandy.. but I am between some thing crazy like hok color changing paint have a lot on the shelf, or a yellow or red awlgrip old school job.

all I do know is I'm going to strip her tomarrow, then she'll need a full paint peal and 15 gallons of glass or so and a lot of thought..

Post some pictures! I have no doubt you have the talent to make this thing really cool. Awesome work on the Bertram. :drink:

thank you
I tend to go a little to far with my projects... The bertram has taken a year and a half now. hope fully this one takes a lot less time...

thank you..

thanks
I don't think I can post photos. I pulled her to the yard today like 60mi it was raining like crazy the toung jack exploded on me, my friend and I had to lift her on to the hitch,, there was good air in the tires after pulling her out of the mud have some photos of the boat right after we pulled her out of the mud... but the good ones will be taken after tomarrow..

The Gladiator is a 36ft Cigarette which is a sit down boat, no cabin. I think OSD is refering to if you want to make have the controls in the middle of the boat between the two front seats but im not sure. This is how a Gladiator is setup. Alot of people have done their 20's set up like this. Good luck with the project!!

20 Cigarette
 

If you want some pictures for reference, send me your e-mail and I will send you some pictures of my bone-stock 20 Cigarette.

thanks I'd like that...

[email protected]

thank you
Larry

20 in OC
 

6 Pictures e-mailed.

tomuchstuff if you are looking for ideas on how to do your boat up one of the goys posted a ton of pictures you will need to go back 5 pages to air dog cig20 picture book its great .Also if you happen to get it done by next fall you may like to bring it to our nexted 20cig outing you can read up on that on page 6 good luck itis a graet boat and reminber you can never have to much power

That's a slick ride... what year is she? paint or gelcoat? are the hatch vents factory? are the tabs factory?


the engine hatch I have seems to have two round 6" holes that were filled, don't know how the hatch was cut for the scoop or if it even had one... And there were stainless 3 fin vents on each side of the engine room...

I pulled the boat apart today all but the gas tank pulled the floor that covers the tank so it will be out in the AM tomarrow.. she'll also get all her paint removed tomarrow then I can start undoing some damage...

Is this hull cored? I see the hatch and cockpit are foam cored..
can any one tell me the amount of letters and numbers in a cig HIN,, I think I found the hin,,,,,,

yes I need some ideas.. I have to try that...

Thank you....

thanks a lot that is a killer post air dog has... lots of ideas...

ok.... so I looked at that post last night.. and finished gutting the boat. must have been to cold the kid that helps me over slept or the paint be stripped also...

There are a lot of stock boats that are super clean, and some nice newer ones, & some nice in between's newer seat with old style window, are some on that post modded to look like the newer 20's? I hope so.

The lip-ship boats are nice looking... Had to make a call down there and talk to them... Phill at lip-ship told me he made some new 20's with the glass window and he had rebuilt one old one to look new using thin ply wood and fiberglass. and was working on one that will have a fiberglass wind screen and the storage box. he also told me he thinks he has the only modded old 20' with the fiberglass wind screen and the rest were the newer 20' boats he built.... I did ask what lip-ship charges to do a total refit he seed it can run over 100k on the 20' and buying some ones finished boat may be cheaper... they do sell used boats also I think....






I think now I have all the bad glass peeled off. I need to rebuild the transom ditch that plywood for some cusco composit or some thing. rebuild and reinforce the engine bunks and burn up the 50 yards of bi axle kevlar I have been sitting on...

here's the plan on the transom ... me and my trusty crowbar are going to pry the two layers of plywood off the transom... then I have to grind the glass thin around all the holes.... there is less glass on the transom where the plywood is so I'll glass it level with polyester and roving cloth around 25oz. Then on the in side glass in the core to the transom. this will cover the factory hole's and the out board hole in the transom, I plan to run it to both sides of the boat so it totally covers the transom. There are two 3/4 sheet of ply wood in there now so I will have to repeat this all stacking 2 core's. Then layer the engine room in carbon then kevlar. Then I have to layer the holes on the out side with roving filling them all. then maybe a layer of carbon then kevlar...

As far as the window I think it'd be nice to build a mold of a hatch/window that is in the shape of the newer boat window so it can lift forward. it will have to be two pieces with a larger dash that can stay in place.

as far as the hatch I think I'll just fill the holes for now.. i think a twin scoop like the ones on the hood of a dodge demon on the out sides of the insert....

I do think it be neat if the hole back seat was a second hatch and lifted on an auto system.. to giving me some room to work...


???????time???????????
will a 454 fit with out cutting the stringers?
will it fit with out cutting the hatch?
is the motor bracketed to the plywood stringers?
or were there 2x6 hard wood bunks with plywood on each sides bolted to the stringers for the motors to sit on?

Tomuchstuff - I was the guy who passed on the 20' Cig you bought. I am also the previous owner of a 1973 20' Cig that had a BBC and a Berkeley jet drive.

Give me an email address and I'll give you my thoughts and contact info.

Good luck with the project, and I'm glad you saved her from the scrap heap!

Harry

thanks harry that be grate...

[email protected]

wow I was wondering why I never got a message from you..

[email protected]

sorry about that..
Larry

let's see some pics!! :)

Dave redid the transom and stringers on mine as well as we had a 75 gallon tank built instead of the normal 60. mine was originally a jet drive as well, the stringers on the small block and jet drives were closer together than the big block models. we didnt find this out until later so we will have to shorten our motor mounts by a half inch on each side. he has all the pics, mine are on my work comp.

I'd like to post photos of the build but can not... do not know why? I have some of the boat being taken apart, and stripping the old glass, and preping her for paint... I may pull the cap from the hull and re core the floor and repair the transom and cap before 5200ing the cap back on the hull... so to say the least it may end up a very in depth re fit,,, my friends do call me crazy..

that must be why my stringers were cut down 3 or 4 inches at one point...

do you know the factory with of the stringers on the big block boats?

it'd be nice to just put in composit stringers now... cut the old ones out of the engine room and sister the new stringer to the old stringer under the deck for 4 or 5 feat if not to the end......

love to see some engine room shots..... like to see you boat also..

what is the frame that is bracketed to the stringers under the back seat...

If you host them elsewhere (I use picasa) all you have to do is click the insert picture button (Mountain with yellow sky and moon) on the toolbar and copy the link! Takes a little trial and error, but works great once you figure it out. if you want to email them to me, I'd be happy to post them.

[email protected] :drink:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_HEgDepHDnCg/S4...0/cig%2020.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_HEgDepHDnCg/S4...g%2020%201.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_HEgDepHDnCg/S4...g%2020%202.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_HEgDepHDnCg/S4...g%2020%203.JPG

and an album link....

http://picasaweb.google.com/SpecialtyAutoWerks/Cig20#

thanks for adding the photos I fallowed the link to the site I'll look it over and try to make it work...

removing all the glass was simple due to the pore workmen ship. they filled all the holes with plywood and covered it in mat and light weight roving with so little resin the cloth was dry in places, kinda scary.
I have been looking at the photos on air dogs post and found one of a brown boat being built like a modern 20' and I wonder if any one knows if that is the older boat that lip ship is building or not.. in the same photo you can see the factory size of the stringer it's much, much larger then mine 6 to 8 inches have been cut from my stringer by the looks of it...

I have also cut out the jet drive water pick up hole and got the boat sanded in 150 normally I hit a boat with 545 at this point "if there wasn't large holes all over her" and I also fear the boat was never sanded right for the first coat of paint,,, I am debating soda blasting the boat in and out, or striping her to gel with my D/A. she is small so I can coat her in dad's paint remover or aircraft stripper and power wash her... I don't know yet still thinking....

yes the brown and tan one is Ricks boat. I am doing the same thing to mine. His was the original that was transformed the other ones Phil bought hulls from cigarette. the bracket that you asked about under the seat is an old battery bracket.it's scrap so dont worry about that one too much.
my opinion on your work progressions would be to remove all the wood from the transom and redo that first to sure the boat up, then remove the deck and go after the stringers and supports. honestly, you pretty much have to start from scratch.

I was thinking of tabbing two 2x4's from the side to side of the hull, one in the bow and one behind the seat. once the deck cap is up I can tab a 3'rd 2x4 if needed that hold the shape of the hull so i can work a week or so.. then I think I can do the transom with nothing in my way....


also it seams like the wind screen mod starts at the bow side of the hatch and runs as hi as the factory window then there is a lip and it go's up 3 or 4 inch in the front and angels down on the sides... or is it mid hatch and i am seeing it wrong...
ya she's not even a hull... all the hard where is scrap...


when guys fill the pick up for the jet drive are they faring the sides of the jet drive pick up platform round or are they grinding it round and reinforcing the hull from in side.... seems as if it may need to be ground down to keep the keel line but at the same time that just seams like a bad idea...

also when you mod the wind screen where are you starting the incline?

seems like when the new and old 20's are side by side the new wind screen starts on the bow side of the hatch and seems to run from there to about as hi as the factory widow but set back an inch or two, then there's a lip and it extends 3 or 4 more inches in the front and angles down on the sides till it meets the factory cockpit rim line...

or?

my cowl incline will be starting right where the storage tub starts, when cig changed the deck, the newer ones have more of a flat deck look to them. I dont have the paperwork in front of me but I think we have about an 8 inch rise. also the newer ones have a pad bottom and not the round hull.
yes you can sure up the deck with 2x4's. my jet drive hole was already glassed over, but very rough, dave filled it once the wood was out, then redid everything and re geled the whole transom and bottom of the boat as well as blueprinted it, all the strakes are now straight and true.

I'd only use the 2x4 just to hold the hulls shape when the cap is off... then remove them once the cap is reinstalled.. The cockpit floor is tabbed in very well to all the stringers... on both sides.. a sob to cut... the stringers are only damages in the one aria they have not rotted just been cut for a larger engine.

I don't think that Dave had to reinforce the hull with 2x4's, the weakest link was the deck.

Tomuch welcome to the 20 club
Lip Ship did this 20 for me

looks like you got your work cut out for you. If I was you I would do big HP Smallblock with a blackhawk drive

I found that my 20 runs alot better with this set up in it


Rick OSG

somemore what it looks like today


Rick OSG