Questions about straight bottom Top Guns
 

May be in the market soon and need some info. In general, what years were there changes made either in interior design/layout or any changes in the bottom?

Which years have the best cabin layout for staying over on the boat?

How much HP to achieve certain speeds?

I see a few with 3 or 3a drives, other than obviously being stronger than a Bravo is there any other pros cons either way?

Kevlar hull vs glass, what if any do you gain?

Any years better than others quality wise due to layup changes or factory issues?

Any water/rot issues to look out for in these years?

Any other info that may be helpful when looking?

Thanks for any input!

Buy one that someone has re-done, restored, re-fit, upgraded, etc. Preferably one with a new transom. As stated before, you can probably buy for .50-.60cents on the dollar for what they invested in parts and labor.

A ton of nice deals out there, especially if you can purchase with cash.

My 1995 TG is a redone low hour 525 EFI boat w/XR's. Runs low 70's top end. You need big power to move a straight bottom to the 80+ Mark. All in all a great boat. I run 60 MPH in nasty water in comfort. Turn the key & go. Cabin layout is nice but sleeping more than 2-3 isn't ideal.

I recommend buying one that has been updated with a fairly reliable power package. Spend the $$ up front. If you buy one that needs updating your end result will be more $$ than expected.

New cabin layout came in ~1990.

If you kill yourself to find a Kevlar they are going to be so far between that you'll have to sacrifice something else (paint/power/etc). And all for what? A couple extra mph.

I believe the guns of that era were made for transmissions - I think I recall the 3 & 3A boats are less likely to porpoise the. The bravo boats which changed the center of gravity.

I'm going to say that on average 75 MPH will come with 575/side

Changes in designs:

Top gun introduced in 87. From 87 to 90/91 the had the flat bolsters, round lifeline/grab handles, twin facing benches and bed in the Cabin with enclosed head. Most had TRS drives. In 90/91 the bolsters were changed to the high backs, the lifelines were changed to the flat style and the cabin was completely changed to one of, if not the best, cabin in an offshore boat that had the table with facing seats on the port side, lounge on the stbd, bed up front and enclosed head and a a cooler big enough to put a body in!

It was the early 90's they started replacing TRS with bravo drives. Also some had SSM 3 (just a beefed up version of the TRS and 3As (which is sometimes referred to as baby 6's) were great drives. 3a is Pretty much a #6 drive with out the twin vertical shafts of a 6. Downside to 3/3as is they haven't made them in a while so parts can be scarce for that reason and the fact they were fairly rare even when they did make them. Parts are also pretty much the same price as # 6 parts (3k for prop shaft I was quoted on mine for example).

You'll get people on both sides of the coin regarding top guns and drives. Some swear top guns eat bravos and others swear they're no worse than any other boat on them. One fact is that the top gun was designed to have drives that required transmissions so the CG was set as such.

Somewhere in the 600 HP range will get you 74ish. 1000HP will get you mid 90's.

The whole Kevlar thing to me was kindve silly. According to Craig Barrie (CEO of cogarette in the 80's and 90's) the Kevlar boats only used it in the engine compartments to strengthen the stringers.

Regarding layup, they were built and looked pretty much the same from 87 to 98/99 when they started vacuum bagging the hulls. Then in 99 they built a few single stepped hulls (nightmare handling) and then in late 2000 the twin steps were introduced with a new mold. Guns STILL externally looked the same until the late 2000's.

Regarding water rot issues - with any boat up to 25 years old you'll want to check the transom. Specifically the early 90's models. Supposidly cafés and guns had an issue with the trim tabs being drilled into the stringers this couldn't be sealed and through bolted correctly. Just remember, all boats this age are going to most likely have a little water in the transom. It's what happens after a quarter century of use.

I agree with buying something that's done. You got a lot of people that have dumped near to or over the amount of money the boats actually worth into updating the boat, just to sell it for market value. The allure of a gun with original power/drives/interior etc with a price range half of what others are going for will be super tempting. But trust me, you'll be way better off benefitting from someone else that soent all that money to update for the extra cash a redone gun will cost.

Yes, buy redone.

If you can spend, say $80K, you will have a boat that has probably $120 into it.

buy mine, turn key and ready to go


http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/c...onna-move.html

Tank, 3's and 3a's have twin vertical shafts just like a six. Smaller parts but same design.

My bad. I was thinking of the TRS.

That's the buy right there!!!

Thanks for all the replies. I agree about buying one already redone, have spent the last few years updating my current ride have no desire to start over again. Will see how much if any value I get when it goes up for sale. I agree 33outlaw's boat is a nice boat at a good price but afraid going from a 28 that runs mid to high 70's to a 38 that runs(guessing here) mid to high 60's might be a letdown fun wise.

The only other catch I see is if you pay 80k for a redone straight bottom there are some twin steps out there for not a whole lot more. Granted they mostly have half cabins which will to work for us. Need a full cabin with enclosed head to keep the other half on board to upgrade.

A twin step for $80K..... Be weary, most likely pretty tired, and might be not a deal in the end. I cannot speak for all boats, I'm sure there is a killer deal out there right now. I'm behind you with the full cabin. Phil made the comment to me once "All you guys want a full cabin up there." He was referring to the Great Lakes area. We were looking at a Gladiator (not to buy, it was in his shop)

honestly, i have no use for the current TG T/S cabins. if i had all the money i would have cigarette build me a 39 T/S with a 1990's cabin layout. the cooler chest, enclosed head, and table are used habitually on our boat. i really couldnt do the upgrade and lose the ammenities. not sure why cig even offers a cabin. might as well build a cuddy just for storage, thats all its really good for... not to mention the wasted space on 46 RR's and 42x's. they cut half the cabin in half.

regarding the original topic...agreed with everyone on buying a re-done gun. we bought ours which was re-done in 2007 (500 efi's and bravo xr's). we love the boat. turn key. certainly not the fastest, but we are out every weekend. to me the key is get one that is close to factory restored with modest power. they seem to sell the best.

I like the 1999 red white one for 89000 in the classifieds. any info on that one. 500 bulldogs. Kevlar for what its worth. whats opinion on price. I think a little high. I see some oil in the bilge in the pictures

also will this boat porpoise with this package

All this talk about porpoise and center of gravity change, has anyone actually weighed the two? Lighter bravos with the engine moved back versus a heavy trs drive and a velvet drive trans? I've rode in and driven both not enough of a difference to worry about. They all porpoise in calm water especially a "six gun"

Super clean straight bottom TG. I've been on it & around it a lot. Boat runs well & has been well maintained. As to price.....you get what you pay for more often than not when buying a used boat.

I agree Red, Ive ridden in both and own one, All I can say, is my Bravo boat will porpoise if trimmed to high in flat water at 50 55, trim it down a bit, pin the sticks and it cleans right up, its a great ride, my bud's TRS TG does the same thing, its amazing how much peeps know about these boats but have never been in one, thanks Al Gore

They all porpoise, my 33 OL does the same thing, but not a 80 :boat:

looking like in the next week or so ill have a 92 CARBON gun. TRS package but new hawk 454/ 525's with 20hrs on them. very clean boat.nice interior, and cabin pm if interested. can repaint to how you want as well.

no clue on what it will run but im assuming 70-73. but PM me if interested.

315 Are you going to bomb every thread about your boat buisness? You should try being a paid advertiser before trolling every thread for buisness....

Back to straight bottoms guns. We loves ours, I dont think the wife will ever let me sell it! As far as power/mph numbers you can get a ton more than what people have posted if its set up right... We run well into the 90's detuned to 860hp.

On the porpoise issue... Mine used to do it around 50-55 in flat water... After I took a class with Tres and drove it his way it never did it again!

Tres said he could fix the bottom to take care of it but after we got on the water with the boat turns out it was the way I was driving it and no bottom work was needed....

i mean its not like he was posting a thread about wanting to buy a flat bottom gun or anything.....

They do ALL porpoise if you don't run them right, absolutely. I've owned a 3A straight gun and have spent probably just as much time or more behind the wheel of straight bottom bravo cigs and #6 cigs. It's a fact the CG on Top guns were created with transmissions and motors moved forward. You had no other options when the gun was introduced.

I don't know if you've run that gun enough to experience it but CG is a pretty big deal. If I put the anchor up front in the bow it would make my boat hop. Running a buddies tiger with 6's down to key west, we had to pull the luggage back the boat porpoised so bad.

I would own a bravo straight hull cig anytime. I just really liked not really having to worry about my drives with the 3A's.

Bottom line; straight bottom cigs don't like smooth water whether you have SSM's or bravos. It's all good though. Drop some tab, kick the drives out, find that sweet spot and you're flying level and smooth.
;)

Oh and because it was asked - bravo weighs 120lbs, TRS weighs 150lbs trans weighs 85lbs. Just FYI.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]529085[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]529086[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]529087[/ATTACH]

My take on the porpoise is it depends on where you boat. We have a straight bottom TRS on Lake Erie where its barely ever flat. So, it is rarely ever noticed. I think if one was running a river or inland lake it's a good talking point.. As for the cabin, I gotta agree with Tank and the others, it's the best for what we use it for..
Jr.
Here's a few pics from kelleys two weekends ago to get ya jonsen.

if you are not in a hurry for a tg, i will have mine nicely finished off by next spring. it's a 92 carbon fiber boat with a new transom, fresh 3's by speedmaster inc., fresh 1350 hubers, newer cmi's dry, etc. the boat is gutted right now, the interior will be all new in the cockpit, cabin is original (all white), seats are out of an 05 tg, paint is getting done next week, all of the metal is out getting powder coated. it will be a nice piece when it's done. it ran 81 with mild 600's with NO "hop". haven't decided if i will be putting in the 598/750 or the 1000's with 3a's. the boat is very light, rigged for 3's and rides very good. it also has a factory style race hatch (also have a flat padded hatch too).

Where's the pics of that project?! Sounds awesome.

PM box is full, shoot me a PM with details when you get a chance no rush

[QUOTE=thisistank;4185200]They do ALL porpoise if you don't run them right, absolutely.
I don't know if you've run that gun enough to experience it but CG is a pretty big deal. If I put the anchor up front in the bow it would make my boat hop. Running a buddies tiger with 6's down to key west, we had to pull the luggage back the boat porpoised so bad.
I would own a bravo straight hull cig anytime.




I agree I need more seat time to figure a few things out, but what I have discovered is mine seems very sensitive to side to side weight loading, over labor day everybody wanted on it, like it was carnival ride LOL, three one time, then 5, then 6, I haven't used the tabs once getting on plane, it would be nice to have someone who really knows these boats show me how to drive it correctly

Pictures required!

i cant post pics but i will have tim (88bullet) put a few up

Roughly 8' beam. Narrow hull. It's going to be touchy with load on each side. Actually if you look at 90's Top Guns and cafés, they all lean slightly to the starboard because of the helm and head. Next time your boats at the dock check it out.

When i bought mine i absolutely hated the hop. I cruised at 45-50 and it was terrible. Now with the big hp i cruise around 60. Its straight as an arrow past 55. Point and case bigger power makes these boats. Im seeing 86ish any day of the week with a best of 90 on relatively tame 800-850hp blower motors. Never been in a #3 boat to compare but my #5s make it feel a lot more agile than when it had trs submarines with an 8' x-dimension. Agree 100% on the cabins of the newer boats!

Hey J Bonez..thanks for the pics..that was me and a few buddies rafted off in the Cigarettes and Midnight Express..if I would have know you were there we would have had a beer

I personally love the straight bottom Gun's. .but with a family of 4 we need the room for sleeping...not a table that will get used for nothing more than to mix drinks on. I was very interested I 33 outlaw's boat but the cabin layout killed it. Btw..how fast with the 500efi's?

Double post

70-71 so Im told

Agreed, thats why I`m dumping a boatload (pun intended :D) of Cash into mine... sleeps 6, AC, fridge, tons of room, SSM drives...
90`s tops guns , no cabin, bravos, hardly any gauges in front of driver.. not sure what happened there... we love spending weekends on the boat, AC down to 67* I sleep like a baby:cool-smiley-027:

I didnt realize all you guys were rolling together. I did talk to Ryan for a little.. Were does the last cig in the row port out of.. I saw the one from Venition. Was Chris with you guys..?

I'd really have to look at one in person but I don't think the cabin layout will work.