Wave handling: Formula 233 vs F3LS
09-15-2011, 11:39 PM
#21
Registered
Way to go John -- that 255 must chop em up and spit em out! The F3 has been a bit of a disappointment in that it hits oncoming waves (I'm guessing 4 footers) pretty hard (thud) -- not what I expected from a 24 degree Formula. It does pretty well going with the waves. I'm sure it's better than 90% of the 21 footers out there, but it's not going to cut the mustard, since pretty much all of our boating is on Lake MI and 3+ footers are the norm, and I'm not excited about going out by myself. The waves here are much tighter than on the ocean, so when you come off of one wave, you're hitting the next wave right in the middle or at the top, as opposed to going into a trough. An old friend has a 24ft Spectra v-drive daycruiser that, to my memory, rode more comfortably on the big lake -- I never felt that thud/crunch going into the waves. Those Spectras were built to handle the Pacific off the CA coast, and they pretty much a custom boat company. Being a daycruiser they had less freeboard than a typical 24 foot boat (lots less than the 255), which is typical of the CA styling at that time. Maybe a 255 with a twin turbo/intercooled/502/BW/TRS would be the hot ticket (I prefer single engine).
Look at it this way...I have 520 horsepower in the water running stock block normally aspirated 350 Chevy's running 87 octane gasoline through Alpha drives.
For $5k I can build a pair of 383's, drop them in and presto...I have 800+ horsepower in the water and I will not add any weight to do it. As long as I don't drive it crazy the Alphas will live.
To accomplish the same thing with a single Big Block...I would absolutely have to supercharge a 502. Once I start running 525 horse power through anything that Merc builds I will have to seriously start looking at XR No 6 dry sump and all of the bells and whistles that brings. Now I've spent $12K on a boat that might be worth $10K in today market with the right buyer in the right mood with a job and the money.
If I want to get to the 800 horsepower mark...I am spending $20K to put that bad ass 502 together plus God only know what else for drive mods!!!Once you cross the $35K threshold you might as well scrap the 255 or even 302 idea and start looking at the OSO classifieds for some of the Cigarettes and older 311~357 Formula's that are available for those numbers.
Think it through before you throw the twin idea "under the bus" in a 242~255 or 272. It starts to make a lot of sense when you spread it out like this.
Of course...you could always change your zip code and get yourself a nice little 20' Sea Ray bow rider to go tubing in on an inland lake somewhere....but then again...that's not you.
09-16-2011, 12:16 AM
#22
Registered
[/IMG]The one bone I have to pick with these older 'birds is the placement of the throttles. I noticed this immediately on my Interceptor.
When fully seated in the drivers bucket, the throttle is effectively out of comfortable reach. Look how the driver has to lean forward and extend his arm to grasp those MerControls in that 255. Some mighty poor ergonomics right there.
I can't easily excuse this, and plan to build a small wooden binnacle to mount the throttle within easy reach, then mount the trim and accessory switches on a wood panel covering the hole left by the throttle.
They wised up on later models and put the controls were you could actually reach them while seated.
I had my neighbor out Labor day in 3'~5' seas running 35~45 MPH. He looked at me and said "Now I know....it all makes sense to me now!!"...and he didn't even have to raise his voice to tell me.
I was recently at All American Trailer in Pompano negotiating a new trailer. There was an "Old Salt" there with 35' Cigarette Mistress having a trailer put under it. He spotted my boat and walked all the way across the yard to take a look. He told me that during the '70's he worked at South Florida Marine which was the Formula dealer in Homestead at the time. The owner had a very good connection with Vic Porter over at Thunderbird and they were able to get some customization done for their customers. Several of the rigs they had put together were for a certain Peruvian "businessman" that had a thriving import business involving "recreational pharmaceuticals". He explained that the Liberator they had built came from Formula Miami in two shipments. The first was a complete boat in all respects with out engines or drives ...but the transom was cut for TRS drives. The engines and drives came separately and were Kiekhaefer/Mercury 450 horse "Cyclones" and "speed-master" TRS dives. The boat also had K-Planes. The explanation was that the 255 was under rated by the Coast Guard and BIA as to it's load capacity and that it was easy to carry a ton of cargo in the 255 and still be able to run close to 60 MPH. Formula would not install the engines due to liability issues and officially sold the boat for "export"...RIGHT!! This cat told us that the boat would top 85 easily and was solid as a rock. It was small enough to trailer around with a normal sized pick up but stout enough to get the job done. I asked if the high free-board was a factor...he looked at me and said "Ding...Ding...Ding...effing.. Ding"!!!
Allegedly there were several of these delivered through that dealership along with a very few 255 "Sportsman" center consoles with twin 260's or 255 (351 Fords) under the console amidships with drive-shafts connecting to the stern drives at the rear. That boat had twin tanks located down each side below deck. He told us that configuration was the best riding offshore boat he has ever been on.
He told us also of a few extremely fast 233 "big cockpit" boats in the mid '60's that had twin 350 horse 327 Chevy's running through Volvo drives. He mentioned that the Volvo 290 drive was the hands down favorite with the local crowd down here for High Performance work because they were so strong right out of the box. He said that most of the old "Sweet 16" and 18' Donzi's came with Volvo's because that's the way Don (Arronow) spec'd them out.
I have to try and find that gentleman again...he was a walking encyclopedia of the boating business in South Florida during the '60's, '70's and '80's.
I was recently at All American Trailer in Pompano negotiating a new trailer. There was an "Old Salt" there with 35' Cigarette Mistress having a trailer put under it. He spotted my boat and walked all the way across the yard to take a look. He told me that during the '70's he worked at South Florida Marine which was the Formula dealer in Homestead at the time. The owner had a very good connection with Vic Porter over at Thunderbird and they were able to get some customization done for their customers. Several of the rigs they had put together were for a certain Peruvian "businessman" that had a thriving import business involving "recreational pharmaceuticals". He explained that the Liberator they had built came from Formula Miami in two shipments. The first was a complete boat in all respects with out engines or drives ...but the transom was cut for TRS drives. The engines and drives came separately and were Kiekhaefer/Mercury 450 horse "Cyclones" and "speed-master" TRS dives. The boat also had K-Planes. The explanation was that the 255 was under rated by the Coast Guard and BIA as to it's load capacity and that it was easy to carry a ton of cargo in the 255 and still be able to run close to 60 MPH. Formula would not install the engines due to liability issues and officially sold the boat for "export"...RIGHT!! This cat told us that the boat would top 85 easily and was solid as a rock. It was small enough to trailer around with a normal sized pick up but stout enough to get the job done. I asked if the high free-board was a factor...he looked at me and said "Ding...Ding...Ding...effing.. Ding"!!!
Allegedly there were several of these delivered through that dealership along with a very few 255 "Sportsman" center consoles with twin 260's or 255 (351 Fords) under the console amidships with drive-shafts connecting to the stern drives at the rear. That boat had twin tanks located down each side below deck. He told us that configuration was the best riding offshore boat he has ever been on.
He told us also of a few extremely fast 233 "big cockpit" boats in the mid '60's that had twin 350 horse 327 Chevy's running through Volvo drives. He mentioned that the Volvo 290 drive was the hands down favorite with the local crowd down here for High Performance work because they were so strong right out of the box. He said that most of the old "Sweet 16" and 18' Donzi's came with Volvo's because that's the way Don (Arronow) spec'd them out.
I have to try and find that gentleman again...he was a walking encyclopedia of the boating business in South Florida during the '60's, '70's and '80's.
Track that guy down and bring a tape recorder to get all the details!
You can't find this stuff anywhere in a book.
Freeboard is vastly underrated. Were I to design a boat, it would have way more freeboard than what is commonly proportioned today.
09-16-2011, 07:56 AM
#23
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: West Olive Michigan
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Awesome story Sprinklerman! It does sound like the twins are a practical way to go faster without breaking the bank. I've gotta run and will be gone all day doing an outdoor fire festival in Northern MI. I'll check back tonight. I just love talking and learning about these classic Formulas!
09-16-2011, 09:11 AM
#24
I owned a 1986 F3LS for 6 years and a 1987 242 LS for 5years. The 242 was only 2' 8" longer but felt 5 feet longer in rough water and was the same speed with the stock 350MAG and a labbed Mirage prop. The 242 is also one of the smallest boats that can be rigged with twin small blocks.
09-16-2011, 05:50 PM
#25
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: West Olive Michigan
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On Time - thanks for sharing your F3 and 242 experiences. Does the 242 have a smaller v-berth bed than the F3? I looked at an 85 or 86 242 some months ago, and the bed was too short for me to lay on. I'm 5'6" and my heel would be on the edge of the bed -- I don't have this issue with the F3, surprisingly. Did you notice any differences in the hull designs? Looking at some pics of the 272LS transom, I don't see any strakes, so I assume it must really slice through the waves, but also must take lots of power to go fast.
09-16-2011, 07:16 PM
#26
Registered
Company in Australia has the molds and has been building 233s:
http://www.edencraft.com.au/formula.html
http://formula233registry.ning.com/p...ource=activity
http://www.edencraft.com.au/formula.html
http://formula233registry.ning.com/p...ource=activity
A shame that they aren't making a long-deck performance configuration. I know the 233 makes a faultless sport fish boat, though. Its a darn versatile little hull.
09-16-2011, 11:03 PM
#27
Registered
iTrader: (4)
On Time - thanks for sharing your F3 and 242 experiences. Does the 242 have a smaller v-berth bed than the F3? I looked at an 85 or 86 242 some months ago, and the bed was too short for me to lay on. I'm 5'6" and my heel would be on the edge of the bed -- I don't have this issue with the F3, surprisingly. Did you notice any differences in the hull designs? Looking at some pics of the 272LS transom, I don't see any strakes, so I assume it must really slice through the waves, but also must take lots of power to go fast.
09-18-2011, 08:22 PM
#28
Registered
Awesome story Sprinklerman! It does sound like the twins are a practical way to go faster without breaking the bank. I've gotta run and will be gone all day doing an outdoor fire festival in Northern MI. I'll check back tonight. I just love talking and learning about these classic Formulas!
09-20-2011, 07:06 PM
#29
Registered
I made an interesting observation today. I pulled my 255 next to a '86 272LS that I am looking at as another "toy"...just to make an observation. Seriously...the 272 looks like a "toy" in comparison to the 255...almost like it's 3/4 scale except for the length. I measured the difference in the free board at the corner from the top of the rub rail down to the chine and got 40.5" with the 255 vs. 29.5" with the 272.
The owner of the 272 and I are both still scratching our heads on the length...side by side from the back edge of the swim platforms to the tip of the bow they appear to be exactly the same. The platform on the 255 projects out 3" further from the transom than on the 272.
The listed weight with twin 260's is 5622 for the 255 and 2750 for the 272. When you walk down the sides between both boats and pound your fist on the sides the 272 sounds like a drum and you can fells the hull shake. Do the same thing with the 255 and it sounds and feels like you are hitting a concrete block wall.
I'm thinking that I might want to find a 255 with no power...pull the top cap off and re-cap it as a Center Console Open Fisherman and hang a pair of 250 Horsepower Mercs on brackets.
Talk about a sweet off shore fishing rig!!
The owner of the 272 and I are both still scratching our heads on the length...side by side from the back edge of the swim platforms to the tip of the bow they appear to be exactly the same. The platform on the 255 projects out 3" further from the transom than on the 272.
The listed weight with twin 260's is 5622 for the 255 and 2750 for the 272. When you walk down the sides between both boats and pound your fist on the sides the 272 sounds like a drum and you can fells the hull shake. Do the same thing with the 255 and it sounds and feels like you are hitting a concrete block wall.
I'm thinking that I might want to find a 255 with no power...pull the top cap off and re-cap it as a Center Console Open Fisherman and hang a pair of 250 Horsepower Mercs on brackets.
Talk about a sweet off shore fishing rig!!
09-25-2011, 12:23 AM
#30
Registered
I made an interesting observation today. I pulled my 255 next to a '86 272LS that I am looking at as another "toy"...just to make an observation. Seriously...the 272 looks like a "toy" in comparison to the 255...almost like it's 3/4 scale except for the length. I measured the difference in the free board at the corner from the top of the rub rail down to the chine and got 40.5" with the 255 vs. 29.5" with the 272.
The owner of the 272 and I are both still scratching our heads on the length...side by side from the back edge of the swim platforms to the tip of the bow they appear to be exactly the same. The platform on the 255 projects out 3" further from the transom than on the 272.
The listed weight with twin 260's is 5622 for the 255 and 2750 for the 272. When you walk down the sides between both boats and pound your fist on the sides the 272 sounds like a drum and you can fells the hull shake. Do the same thing with the 255 and it sounds and feels like you are hitting a concrete block wall.
The owner of the 272 and I are both still scratching our heads on the length...side by side from the back edge of the swim platforms to the tip of the bow they appear to be exactly the same. The platform on the 255 projects out 3" further from the transom than on the 272.
The listed weight with twin 260's is 5622 for the 255 and 2750 for the 272. When you walk down the sides between both boats and pound your fist on the sides the 272 sounds like a drum and you can fells the hull shake. Do the same thing with the 255 and it sounds and feels like you are hitting a concrete block wall.
I noticed the same thing when looking at an '87 272 many years back. The hull sides did seem to have a bit more "bounce" to them than I expected when I gave it a sharp rap... Interesting.
The 255 most definitely has more going for it in the design department. Its unusual amount of freeboard makes it very unique among boats its size. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Four Winns' 261 Liberator when attempting to compare another boat with so much freeboard. I often wondered if the 255 Liberator was the inspiration.
For offshore fishing, I can't think to too many other hulls I'd rather take, save for the 233 sport fish
