Partial transom replacement???
 

After removing both of my transom assembles, I had water coming out between of the transom layers on the SB side of SB cutout. The port side of the cutout appears dry, as does the remaining half of the transom. I tapped around the cutout with a claw hammer and the area in question sounds soft. It appears to be the lower 1/2 of the cutout on the 1 side. When tapping on the inside and outside of the transom around the cutout, it sounds solid, but I'm assuming that's a false test, since it obviously had water in there.

I think the next check is to drill some holes from the inside to check the extent. Is it possible to section in new wood in the bad area, and then some, providing I can get a good overlap with good wood, depending if the layers can be split?? I don't want to get into replacing the whole transom if it's not needed. This boat has a 10' beam, so I assume it has to be sectioned/overlapped anyways. Just not sure were joints are allowed, or what needs to be spanned in order to maintain the integrity.

I've read all the transom replacement threads here, but those all involve complete replacements.

Thanks

Anything is possible but untill you actually start tearing into this progect you will never know and usually 9 times out of 10 after getting into a project like this it can be like opening a can of worm's and sometimes it is better do just go a head and replace the whole transom and have piece of mind .

Sounding should actually be done with a light tack hammer and very seasoned ear. Yes i would drill some holes to see just how far the wet wood goes, thats the best and most accurate way. Hate to say it but as a rule of thumb you will only be able to detect about one third to one half of the actual damage and the rest will show itself upon tear down. Its probably going to be just as labor intensive to patch it as it is to do the whole transom anyway. Not trying to sound discouraging but i wouldn't want to have to de rig the boat to do the other side next year. Poke a few holes under the dry side transom assembly and go from there. good luck . . . . we'll get ya through it :cool:

oh . . . . and the answer to your signature line is Ginger AND Mary Ann :D

Thanks Dave. I'll do some drilling and report back.

Ok , I beat the chit out of it with a hammer tonight. Not sure what I was listening for, so I compared sides. The side in question does sound a little more hollow if I had to describe any differences in sounding. Then got out a 1/4" drill (large enough?) and drilled deep enough to go thru the wood only. The wood appeared somewhat darker and a little easier to drill than the good side. I did drill 2 holes down low near the drain plug and got a small dribble out of those holes. Maybe a tablespoon or so, but still water none the less.
The problem is the boats weight is supported on keel blocks with 6 stands for stabilty and I have no trailer, so can't take it anywhere.
If I go ahead and remove the wood, how do I make sure the bottom doesn't push up since the stringers will not be attached? Do I support the rear at the rear corners and let the bottom 'hang', or will the FG layer keep the transoms profile?

Thanks.

You'll want to support the edge of the keel and the hard chines evenly also at the corners of the transom and you'll be fine. It helps that you arent pulling the stringers.

The key to sounding is actually light tapping and audible changes in pitch. The guy that does my surveys is amazing. He only uses a small tack hammer, gave me the tutorial one time on a boat i was buying. Learned a lot and i have been in the biz for a while :D

Tapped on it lightly tonight. There is some changes in tone, but mostly when closer to the bottom or stringers where there is some additional material. I drilled a couple of the 1/4" holes out to 1/2". The 1st layer looked good, but then the second layer was black. Down by the drain hole it looked more black thruout, yet it sounds solid as a rock when tapping. Have you ever heard of using PLexus as the adhesive to bond the plywood sheets in, instead of resin and fiberglass? I question that, but only becuuse never heard of it before.

Thanks.

Oh Davey wavey my sweet honey bunny throttle man i will see you in the Keys . :kiss:

tapping and sounding a transom really has to be done with a seasoned ear. My survey guy found stuff with his little hammer i had no idea was there and i been doing this for years :D

for us, drilling is the next best way. I try and catch everything from each new hole separately and see if i can get water out of it. I dont see why you couldn't use Plexus to bond the panels together but i would with the supplier to make sure, I've never used it on wood.

I was planning marine plywood, but it seems the majority vote for exterior grade. I forget the name I ran across in 1 of the threads that was recommended/used in 1 of the jobs.. Aucrate???? It is a 3/4" 7 ply ext. plywood, but read were it has void in it. Would marine plywood be best with no reservations for transom coring?
I'm wanting to do this right and only once.
Also, with winter coming on and the boat is in a non heated pole barn, does this effect being able to do the FG work? I might be able to build a tarp over the boat and heat with a Reddy Heater. And if chit blows up, consider this project done. :)

I've leaning towards Epoxy resin with a fast cure hardner since the outside temp is working in my favor for longer working time.
Thanks

More thinking. When considering a full height panel, it won't slide down between the 2 tall middle stringers and the transom. It will be to tall to fit under the deck and clear the 2 stringers. There is a 6" above the transom for the swim platform cavity, while the middle stringers are at least 12". I see 2 options, cutting the stringers back (which I'm not sure/comfortable about doing at this point, but that seems to be the recommendation on the' How To Do It' websites) to be able to tilt the panels in place, or to seam the panels horizontally. In that case, is it accceptable to have a seam running thru the transom cutouts? What is the rule for overlaping amount?

The stringers appear to be solid 2x since the motor mounts are lagged into the top. Don't think plywood would work there.

Making headway. Appears the leak is originating from the drain holes for the rear hull corner cavities. The holes were drilled, but the wood wasn't sealed. Both sides have the same water stains. Now just gotta figure out how water is getting in the rear cavities, when those holes are a good several inches above water level, and the boat has always been under a covered slip. This is with 2 layers removed, 5/8" and 3/8". Still have a 3/8" layer to go.

Just a side note, if you tend to use a ready heater at any point, remember that you wont have a clean burn. The residue from the kerosene may effect the layering of fiberglass, and the bonding agent you may use. Better off using an electric heater, they do just as well, and its clean, uncontrollably heat. Also, use precaution when dealing with fiberglass. You may already know this, but it helps to keep it in thought. (Filters really don't block it all out)

Other then that, good luck on your project, ill follow it threw the winter. I've done some boat restorations, and by all means there not fun at all.

Thanks, I have an electric heater if need be. Hoping to get this wrapped up in the next 2 weeks before the temps get too cold.

How do I deal with the 2 middle stringers? They are solid 2x10's that also have the motor mounts lagged to the top of them. I need to cut them back a bit to install the transom wood and glass. Do I simply cut them back square and butt new peices back in and glass them in, or does there need to be some type of overlap, which I don't see how to do w/o adding wood to the sides of the stringers. I currently have the wood removed from the transom buildup w/o doing anything to the stringers.

Any advise is appreciated. Thanks

Dude, sorry to hear about this. As Xtreme said kerosene ready heaters don't burn clean, If you need I have a 80,000 btu propane one you can borrow. Burns very clean, I have used it to bring the shop temp up. Never had a problem with paint like you would get with a kerosene one.
I could meet you half way, not like I am working or anything.

Of course I always shut off before any paint fumes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Thanks pal. I'll have to see what the temps are going to be when I get to that point. Hopefully next weekend. Got most of the wood out tonight, will get the rest this weekend, then cut the new wood. Glassdave is guiding me threw this. The pics don't show 1/2 of it. On the positive side, it'll be stronger and better when I'm done with it. If not, know of any lifts for sale that'll fit my Fountain? ;)

Good one.

Hey I figure this way it will be easier for you to mount V10's and Indy drives.

Let me know on the heater.

Working on getting the last of the wood out only to see the transom has a layer of filler(?) between the outer FG and 1st piece of plywood.
Anyone run across this, and do you recommend removing the filler and laying up a layer or 2 of 1708 biax cloth against the bare transom? No idea what the filler is, assuming to level out the back for a flat surface to bond the wood to. Just thinking if the filler will still be able to accept a resin for bonding. It is somewhat softer than the gap filler used around the perimeter of the plywood, as can be seen by the gouges from either my chisels :eek: or were the stuff didn't bond as well to the outer layer of glass, which is the majority of the missing areas. A little hesitant to leave the filler in w/o opinions.
The shots of the top part of the cutouts show the filler somewhat deteriorating. Looks like cotton fuzz. I'm assuming from water?

Thanks

Looking at this picture with this post I'd be seriously looking at that outter stringer to make sure the water didn't weap into it and start rot up the stringer that you'll be doing this again later. Just a observation. I've never tackled a project like this so I'm going by pics alone.

The wood is like a wick and the wood will suck the water up like a spong all the way to the front of the boat if it stays wet long enough. This what my boat is made out of now no wood in the transom or stringers
http://transomrepair.com/zk/

Not to worry, the stringers will be looked at real close when I cut them back to get the new wood in. May even drill a couple holes for a look, down low & somewhat forward. That rotten wood in that pic was actually the middle layer of plywood. The outer sheet was good for the most part throughout. The ends of the stringers were isolated from the transom by the FG matting and had good wood when I cut through them to separate from the transom.

All wood is now out and down to the filler. The wood was really black were the problems originated. There were very small pin head size bugs crawling in the wet wood.
Would have been nice if Baja would have used as much resin to seal all the exposed wood, as they did in staples to fasten the 3 sheets together!

I think that filler your talking about may just be light weight expandable foam? I would try to find and use something else to level out the surface if the foam is in bad condition.

Also, when you go to insert the new piece of wood in, how are you bonding one to the other? (Resin? or a higher grade marine adhesive). What else you may want to try is w/e surfaces your not glassing, paint with DTM paint..(Direct to metal, bonds like crazy). Especially the edges of the plywood, it will suck that paint in and seal it off from any water going threw. (Thats how the rot really starts, is from the play wood edges, and the drain holes..ive just learned to seal them with an oil based paint)

Going to bond the wood together with resin and a layer of 1708 mat. The mat might be overkill, but I have alot of it. The ends and all holes will be sealed with resin and maybe even a layer of matting. I was thinking of removing the filler and using the 1708 biax to buildup the transom to the approx thickness it is now with the filler by layering it on, then doing a finish sand to level it out.
How many layers of FG can be put on in at 1 time? Have read where no more than 3 at a time, and then read where it was ok to do 6 as long as it's a wet on wet layup. The issue being the heat buildup during the cure. I recall reading too much heat with more than 3 layers can cause issues?
Also, is it best to apply the 6" tape around the edges after the wood is in, then extend the 1st biax matt 2-3" past the tape, then extend the 2nd biax matt 2-3" past the the 1st? Or do I run the out 1st biax 8" out onto the sides/bottom, 2nd layer 2" shorter, then finish it off with the 6" tape which would be just a 3"/side coverage? Seen/ told it could be done either way, just curious which way to run the overlaps is best/strongest.
Thanks for the input!

Sorry to chime in to your thread so late but I have been out of town. Regalman has a thread covering most of the install of this same project..."what-wood-use-do-i-really-need-marine-grade" it is a few threads down in this same form.

I replaced my complete transom and sections of stringers too. I think the filler you are talking about is kind of a pinkish color (or at least mine was). I think they call it cabasall or something like that (not sure how to spell it). You are correct, it is a filler but I am not 100% sure why its there but it appears to be used in all transom applications. I did a complete transom replacement and Glass Dave told me to leave it on and DO NOT take it off. It looks like you have some gauges in it (and I did to from trying to remove the stupid plywood). Glass Dave told me just to fill in the gauges and voids with new filler and a puddy knife or a yellow plastic body filler spreader deal. Then once you have it all filled in, scuff the whole transom up with a 2x4 and a piece of sandpaper and you are ready for the install!

If I am not mistaking, the cabasal stuff comes in a bucket and is kind of fluffy. You mix the fluffy powder with resin and it works like "bondo" or automotive body filler but is different I guess? Glass Dave told me to call "US Composites" to order the cabasal, resin and glass. They are good people to work with and I recommend them as well.

As for the stringers Glass Dave told me to come back off of the transom a couple inched and cut them back on a 45 degree angle. I posted a couple pics on the other thread if you want to see them) Once I did this I found that part of my stringers were rotten to. This is why the hammer tapping method doesn’t work / or didn’t for me :( The stringers sounded good and looked good but ends of them where they connect to the transom were rotten as a result to the water leaking down the transom and then worked into the ends of the stringers. Big bummer but not that big of deal in the big picture.

I would strongly recommend looking at the thread I referenced above (what wood use do I really need marine grade). It should help a bunch. Please let me know if I an be of any more help, but go with whatever Glass Dave says, he knows his stuff!! I would have been lost with out him. On a scale of 1 to 10, Glass Dave is about a 15++

Brian

That ngle that Dave told you to cut on the stringers is called a scarf joint .

Yeah, I have that thread memorized and resort to it several times a day. Even have it bookmarked for faster access. ;)

I talked with Dave at length last week. Just keep on running into more questions.
I'm ordering from US also. Going with the Vinylester resin. Figure if the boat was originally done in poly, this will be a step up w/o going too crazy with epoxy.

Did the filler seem to accept the resin and make for a strong bond? That's what I'm concerned about. Not really knowing what it is. Did you use a thickened mixture with your 1st piece of mat/wood, or just mat with with straight resin? The filler issue is giving me the most fits. I'd prefer to remove it and build up the transom with more glass since it looks like there is just 2, MAYBE 3 layers. Either way, it's paper thin. But the filler varies quite abit in thickness, from nothing to 3/16" in spots. Surprising, the outside is really straight. The gouges don't worry me as they are an easy fill. Which way did you do the overlap? Less overlap with each following piece or more overlapping?



Thanks

Unless you went crazy with hammers and chisels the filler wont let loose and you will get a good bond. If it's not smooth enough just sand it or grind it. You can blast it with an air nozzle to see if any of it flakes off. On a transom that's going to be over 2" thick you can use polyester resin. Epoxy might be a better choice if you have not done a few transoms, because you can give yourself hours of working time with epoxy compared to 45 minutes with polyester. I've run a kerosine heater in my shop off and on for 12 years and it's never been a problem. If you get Kerosine on your hands that's a problem so always use some disposable gloves when handling the fuel.


www.bowkersfiberglass.com

How thick will this yield?

Currently the transom is 1/8".
Adding 3 layers of 1708 to build it up and make it flat.
1 layer 1 1/2oz matting
3/4" wood,
1 1/2 oz matt
3/4" wood,
Finished off with 2 layers of 1708.

I'm shooting for right at 2" to match original thickness. Just not sure how thick the 1708 and 1 1/2oz mat add up to. Will 5 layers of 1708 and the 2 layers of 1 1/2 oz yield at least 3/8"?
I'm thinking I'm going to come up short and may need to substitute 1 of the 3/4" for 2 layers of 1/2"

Thanks

that sounds like a good layup and should get you pretty close to desired thickness. The coupler does have the ability to compensate for the slight difference its the excessive deviations in or out that you want to avoid.

Thanks Dave. Going to start the rebuild this weekend.
So 2) 3/4" it is.

Just trying to avoid moving the motor mounts forward/backward if at all possible by keeping the thickness the same.

Is a Bravo drill jig the same as an Alpha?

yes bravo and alpha use the same jig. When you mount the jig and drill all the holes you can rotate it a few degrees and line up one of the bottom guides to drill the lower corners of the cutout. Makes cutting it easier if you dont have to make the turn with a blade and comes out nice and square.

Iam not sure if this will help but iam also doing a new transom in my boat for the reason of converting a TRS to a Bravo. While I was removing the plywood I found alittle water in the plywood so its a good thing I decided to do this now. Also I notched the stringers starting a few inches forward and angling the cut towards the transom. This will make it easier to slid the new wood in and also make wedges and hammer them in place to hold the new wood up against the transom.

Well here is my thread and good luck! Oh if iam doing anything wrong speak up and let me know since this is my first time.. :evilb:
Erik

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/e...onversion.html

Another question that I find conflicting info on. How many layers of glass can be put down at once when using vinlyester?

Have read only 2 -3, and also on up to 6 layers, do to the heat curing produced making for a weaker part from too much heat.

Plan was to lay in 3 layers of 1708 for the buildup/rough leveling the 1st day, then follow with the 1 1/2oz layer and thickened Cabisol/resin on the 1st peice of wood to go in the next day. I understand the wet on wet is best, but is this too much at 1 time? Naturally would love to do it in 1 day if this is OK do to the weather temps, as long as the glass doesn't slide down on me.

Have also read if I continue on with the layup within 24 hrs, I don't have to sand the layers applied the previous day and this still constitutes a primary bonding???

The more I read, the more I'm lost!

Thanks

you wont have to worry about putting to many layers on at one time for this project. If you measure catylist accuratly you should be able to keep from cooking it plus it still cool where you are working on it. I would probably do the three layers, the ounce and half and the first layer of wood wet on wet. Reason being if you have a less the flat surface to begin with its going to be easier to get it to level with the wood with all layers still wet then with just the single layer of mat (if that makes any sense). It would be awfully difficult to get glass to slide down, takes a super saturated piece to get that to happen. What normally happens with some vinylesters that have a lower viscosity is the resin will tend to drain out of the laminate leaving dry spots if you dont stay on top of it. Just work as quick and efficiently as you can. Setting up your work is key, cut laminates, wood, everything ahead of time and try to do it in the least amount of steps.

The resins are air inhibited which means in the presence of air will not cure completly at the surface leaving it tacky and allowing you to put on subsequent layers at a later time. Usually next day, you could streach that out a bit but i would try to get them on as soon as possible. I'm a big fan of as much wet on wet as possible. For transom projects though there really is no need to have a wet on dry situation. My transom layups are pretty basic. I will laminate the two pieces wood together outside the boat, let that cure overnight then refit the next day, After i am happy with fit i will lay in the ounce and a half then clamp in the wood and leave it for the next day again . So at this point when i come in the next morning i have a nice dry bonded in transom. At this point all i have to do is back fill the perimeter with cabosil and cap the whole thing off with two layers of 1708 with a few extra tabbing layers staggered in the perimeter. Only differance with yours is the addition of three layers of 1708 at the base. you should not have to sand any of the laminates you are putting in.

Try and keep the whole process as simple as possible although i do understand it can be somewhat intimidating if your not familiar with it. Just keep posting pics and stuff. Ya got my number if ya need it :D

Dave,

I was wondering if could laminate your wood sheets together outside the boat and then fit and glass them in at one time.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Jim

Thanks Dave. I also thought of the fact that the 4 layers of wet glass would help make for a better contact footprint and there wouldn't be a need for the thickened Cabisol/resin mixture if that route was doable and it was pretty flat.

Your number is #1 on the speed dial. Crisis Hotline is #2. :grinser010:

From my understanding that is the proper way of doing it. Glue both pieces of plywood togeather first and allow it to dry, then go ahead and install in the boat.
Erik

Hey Jerry

How is it going? Did you get your material ordered? Did you get all of your demo completed? Did you get my pictures I emailed? Brian

Brian, yep, got everything. Spent all weekend on it planning to have the wood in. Had a couple major setbacks. Won't go into the huge mess we found. By time we got up the 1st piece of wood in, got it all clamped for fear of running out of time. The 1 1/2 oz matting is a royal pain! Screwed up the 1st one. So installed the one cut for between the layers of wood, only to find out that all the bolts I bought for clamping are galvanized, so the threads had a zinc buildup that prevent reg nuts from going in. All the stores were closed at this time, so frantically working, I cut a bunch of braces to push against the wood. After that, found a die and cleaned up the bolts and was able to get it clamped up for the night.

About ready for glass, x2
1st layer of wood in and clamped
Covered, dehumidified and heated.