Stroking a Reverse Rotation 454
 

first of all this site has a wealth of info. thanks for letting me lerk around.

I have a Trojan 10 Meter 33ft. 13ft beam 16,000 pounds no fly bridge
the motor are at machine shop now. parts are starting to arrive.

2 454 MK IV,s one standard rotation one Reverse rotation "crank spins backwards" cam is standard direction reverse firing order "gear driven"

build sheet so far.

All Forged bottom. crank 4.25 stroked , I beam rods , Diamond Pistons 60 over CR around 8.75, Heads I am leaning toward the AFR's "264 runners?"
i think , Elderbrock dual plane air gap Manifold , need help with the Ignition and Carb setup. i think MSD and a Holley ?? wich ones don't know.

full HYD. Roller motors
Bob at RM is doing the Cam designs Cam motion is Machining round stock. so i do not have any info on cam yet.

also any info i can get will be Great. I know this is not a race Boat. they were only 330 HP new thinking around the 530HP or so now @ 5k RPM

can also use some Prop info i know i need new ones. don't know where to call or who to talk with... Thanks in advance.

also my name has nothing to do with boats.... I also drag race. 7.70 1/4 not to bad....it is only a 4cyl. with a 74mm turbo. so i have used the name for a wile..

wow, that is a heavy boat.

What's on the drive end that you stuck with the reverse rotation? +1 on the heavy boat!

Bob is a expert, he can not only set up your cam but he knows what parts work well together.
It may be worth your while to set up the engine as a standard and make adjustments to your drive.
Be sure to upgrade the oiling system, the stock system has a very small cooller.

motors, velvet drives, shaft and props... no outdrives

the drive ratio is a 1:52.1 with old prop was 18 x 18 4 blade nibral

the drives can not reverse the input direction. i had looked into that.

Bob is doing Cams Head selection and lifters.

i forgot to mention the exhaust manifolds are the revolution marine manifolds , risers , and 4 to 6 inch y,s on both sides wet exhaust

thanks about the oil cooling....what do you guys recommend

cant u just get other drives ...maybe TRS/ #3's or so ?

i dont have outdrives to switch direction... unless their is something that someone has not mentioned. my drives are the 72c velvet drives. they said there is no changing the input direction from lets say cw input to ccw output

Earl @ Huber said he can make them stronger but no changing direction

The 72 C is a transmission, not your outdrive !!!!

What DRIVES are on the back of the boat ??
a picture would be very helpfull !!

Thats what im saying... i dont have drives . i am a shaft drive boat

AHHHH, gotchya !!

i would say some custom weissman transmissions would work super not brake at all , no matter what power u put in.

Then u could have 2 reg LH engines instead of the counter rotating one !
But i know , its not cheap.:party-smiley-004:

For ignition MSD 6M marine boxes. Availiable with or with out rev limiter. Since you now have 496 cu.in.'s you would need a 800 or 850 holley.
As for props there are all kinds of places on the internet but you may be better to deal with a local prop shop.

Its a inboard !!! got the same deal on my gibson...you got the right guy on the cams..you staying with hyd flats ? do not used a performer RPM, only std performer...you will never see the RPM you need, forget the MSD, use a H/P HEI eliminate the vacume advance and keep timing at a max 26-28 total, I run edelbrock 600's on my 454's work great never see 4k, I'd go with their 750's on this...you will be running in the 3300-3600 range most of the time I'm thinking....if more opec will yove you long time !! good luck..

What intake manifold would you guys recommend.
Holley carb, which model

and why not an MSD?

I say MSD is fine and a 800 Holley would be perfect but Bob M. can tell u what u need, i would let him do a build sheet not just a cam !!!!

Fixx
 

Stick with the airgap,even tho you wont see 6500 rpm's its still a better intake then the performer intake...you wont be boiling the fuel from under the intake from the hot oil splashing on it.

The Trojans are an incredibly well built boat and of course as he is saying are either direct drive or V drive but either way have fixed prop shafts and no drives on the back of the boat
I think you are a little optomistic on the HP of the new engines but being reverse rotation doesnt cause any real problems

Fastestonehere I know your boat well.

I'm vey interested in what you're at doing because I'm looking to do the same thing on a 21000 lbs boat . First, do you have Crusader engines?

The reason being is You said that you have "2 454 MK IV,s one standard rotation one Reverse rotation "crank spins backwards" cam is standard direction reverse firing order "gear driven" -

Are you saying saying that your cam is a standard cam and not a reverse cam in the reverse engine? I was thinking I would have to get a special reverse grind cam on mine, but if it's standard cam that would be great.

I was hoping to use a mild cam that would utilize the added stroke to acheive about 400 to 420 hp and 500 lbs of torque in the crusing range. With our type of boats its all about torque, so any way I could acheive more of it that would be better. I also run 72c transmisions. As far as propping I deal with prop scan out of Chichago, they are excellant. With my boat I was hoping to get a couple more inches of pitch with the added torque and then cruise at a higher rpm. I use fuel flow meters and know that if I currently run at 3500 rpms I get better fuel ecoonomy than at 3200. I was hoping to run the rebuilt stroked engines at 3800 because despite the higher rpms the more the boat gets up out of the water the more efficient it becomes. Your boat with the Delta Conic hull begins to really move once it gets on top of the water.

I'm also interested to know what the cost of your rebuild is going to be.

One other thing my builder is concerned about is water reversion if I go too radical with the cam because I do idle alot when trolling. Please let me know how things are progressing and what kind of performance your're looking to get. Any suggestions are welcome.

Good luck - keep me informed

The cam spins the standard rotation but has a different firing order. I've done a couple stroked reverse rotators they work fine. It's the only way to go unless you change trans. On V drives you can change their direction but straight shafts you're pooched. I'd use the stock GM small cap HEI, the MSD marine distributors are junk and you have no need for a box. ProSytems can build you a set of custom carbs matched to your combo for not much more then out of the box carbs and they work great. Good luck with the project. :drink:

you do not need or gain a thing from MSD(may soon die) you do not need the performer RPM, look at where the power band is, you do not anything over a 750 at most with this application..you want max velocity and torque..again 3500 rpm going to be where it lives...

Sounds like an inboard to me. A reverse rotation motor will spin the motor's crank backward. The 72's, you have to rotate the plate that is in the front of the tranny to make it work like a normal rotation tranny would but spinning in the other direction.

Yes, Crusaders....

Not Standard Cams....Standard Rotation reverse firing order,Distr. gear is standard cut , Timing Gear is pressed on with a key way. my cam is at Cam motion being measured, Bob is having "6" sets of these made. for people like us. not cheep but Right.

Im not really worried about reversion because bob is working with the LSA so this should not be an issue.

Cost ???? well i build my own Engines... or i should say Assemble my own. but i will keep you all posted on cost as it all comes in.

Fixx
 

i know some people have done this,,make sure you get the reverse rotation rear main and front crank seals..

Thanks, i've heard that i should get a "non directional" seal.

But how about the oil cooler.....also im a closed cooling system.

oil flow is the same, why the cam turns correct wat to drive the oil pump right, better off staying the the gear to gear set up..the new ones(which I have) run a chain and a reverse cut dist gears...ends up with all new issures there..long story...mine are crusaders with closed cooling as well...Rob

That's why these motors are built like they are. So everything works normal inside the motor except for the crank is going the other way.
So Bob is is cutting a couple of these cams? I may have to get back in touch with him about mine. I wish he could find some blank flat tappet billets. I have no reason to make the motor go roller and would like to upgrade the RR cam.

Their are no cores left...We are going Roller.

as for the oilCooler i am trying to see what works well for everyone else. i figure the stock ones might not cool as well.
i will still keep eye on oil temps.

also what roller rockers do you guy prefer....Comp , Lunati , Jessel.... And what model numbers would you say i should use.

Crane gold.

A lot of cranks have little lines machined in at about a 45 degree angle where the rear seal contacts the crank to help push the oil back in the motor. On reverse rotation these lines slant opposite the standard rotation. On the reverse rotation motor you may want to have the lines polished out or they will help push oil past the seal. Look at your stock cranks closely and you will see what I mean.

thanks

Thanks,already notified the machine shop...my Cranks are comming from Ohio Crank having machine shop confirm Straitness and finish of cranks. Whats one more thing.lol:drink:

Fixx
 

ummm thise line are for a rope seal,,to to build heat in the rope to help them swell..i phucked up once when i was young,340 w2 mopar engine,,installed a rubber replacement seal but did not know i was soppose to have that knurling polished off.

fixx
 

you want to use a .200 longer rod also.6.385..internal ballance as well

Well the Crank and Rods mad it in today. Here is a few shots

I hope this works and is not to big

in the past i have used Clevite Bearings.... what Kind do you guys recommend Mains and rods

The rear main seal on a reverse rotation engine is different than a normal seal. The grooves on the seal go the opposite direction.

Not the seal....The Bearings

Well I have a few days and Bob @ RM says the cams will be done! I am excited this is a run down of what we have done.
one standard and one reverse rotation
2-MK IV blocks stroked and bored to--- 496's Machined by Fowler's
All forged internals Ohio Cranks I beam rods and 4.25 stroke crank
Diamond pistons 2618 forging ,compression around 9.75 Bore 4.310
Akerley and Childs Extreme bearings mains and rods
Cam from Bob @ marine Kinetics Hyd.Roller
Morel roller lifters Scorpion stainless Roller Rockers
AFR 264 Heads opted for the CNC job
Melling oil pump 10778 series
Going with a Air Gap Manifold
DUI Ignition
Revolution Marine Aluminum"wet" Exhaust Manifolds and rissers
????? Carb ??????? I Need Some Help not a race application but needs to work without any hickups

Sparkplugs anyone using Iridium. I am N/A Cruser Boat max RPM around 5k dont want to change them out every month

also should i increase the size of the oil coolers or will factory be fine I am unsure of the size. I am a Closed cooling system

here is some Pics (if I do this right)

I think the std crusader coolers will be fine...you will not be turning a lot of RPM, should be good to go...