Proof?
 

I have proof, too.

These are MY gears. They were removed from my drives after 4 seasons of beating the daylights out of them, all tolled 200+ hours of constant abuse.

That "light" raceboat of mine isn't what it appears. Dangling on a crane, the scales show her weighing in at 9,300 lbs. And, yes, that's AFTER I removed all of the cabin/interior down below. Light is certainly not a word I would use to describe the 10-Meter Fountain of Youth.

In 5 seasons of racing with these drives, I had one "failure", if you could call it that. I came down sideways off a 8 foot wave in Ocean City, and snapped off a lower unit at the studs. Now mind you, this was the very next race after spinning her around backwards in Key West, so those studs might have been stressed a bit. But ask someone who was at the races that day about what happened to a fellow P4 competitor and his Bravos, he came back after the race with one of them hanging from a tiebar.

I have, and will continue to beat these drives mercilessly. I'm running a pair 750hp dry-sump SuperCat motors, with tq numbers in the mid-600's from 3000 thru 6500. If anyone is a crash-test dummy for these things, it's me. They just take it. 1500hp at WOT for 45 minutes in a 9300 lb resin bucket (in ANY conditions) should be proof enough for you.

JoeTool, I don't know what went wrong with your setup, but something isn't adding up. And what further doesn't compute, is the bashing you're giving the great folks at Konrad. These people have bent over backwards for me, and I've personally witnessed them doing the same for dozens of other customers.

Konrad's products, and the Team are first class.

Sincerely,
Brian Bunch

P.S. 520, 540, Ace, PRS... they're all the same stuff, just configured differently. Saying one is good and the other isn't doesn't make a lick of sense.

Gotta go. Time to go beat them up on a Poker Run.

Thanks Brian, i learned something ..see?!
But still i would like to see the same parts from a TRS next to yours !

Any how ,,,stay safe and i may see u up north.
Scott

Maybe this will help...

If you're coming to St. Clair, stop by the Konrad Marine/Scorpion Racing Engines tent and check out the Fountain of Youth's hardware up close. Sorry, I don't think you'll see any TRS's on display, or even on a race boat, anywhere for comparision.

But I'll buy you a beer anyway.

Cheers,
Brian

the pictures in p4-33's post
 

By those top 3 Pictures, the Konrad appears to use Bravo lower gears....:confused:

The reason I'm as you say bashing Konrad is the fact that there drives can't handle the hp. They repaired my one drive this week and installing it tomorrow, the turn around time was excellent and I'm thankful for that. The real question is how is the other drive going hold up???? They told me that they don't know why it broke which leaves me wondering about the other one??????????????? wouldn't you? I'll keep you all posted on it.

They make their own I beleive.

Just similar in overall design,I have seen them on display at the st claire races,talked to kurt from konrad and Brian p4-33 and I work on my own Bravo lowers,the bravo gears are considerably smaller,Smitty

Scott what makes me so pissed about your statements is you make them as a factual statement when you have obviously never seen the drive! You don't know that the Konrad has MASSIVE bearings and larger shafts and they have address most of the issues with the TRS. It is far from the same drive and the Konrad is almost 2" shorter. Don't speak as though you are an expert on a drive when you don't have a clue what you are talking about!

AUDIO,,,your right. :Whatever:


NO WAY THEY ARE STRONGER THEN A #3 and up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats what i was talking about and by the way konrad sais its an TRS replacement ,atleast they did use that term.

How do you know that, you are assuming that. What do you base your OPINION on? Have you ever seen the drive, have you ever taken one apart, are you a metallurgist If you don't know what you are talking about and you clearly do not then you should just shut the f up. Do you think that Mercury would have sent a representative to this guys location to test props and work with him on set up for his boat? You give Mercury a call and ask them to come out and test props for a #3 drive and let me know how that goes. Do all those #3 drives really belong to you or some one else, maybe some one that owns a Cig?

Hey Smitty,

I know you work on your lowers, I had some gears treated by you and supplied you a lower gear set.

Maybe just a coincidence, look at the part # in the first pic on the propshaft gear - 43-818928 -, the same number as on the Bravo gear ?????, just observing.....

Steve

Hey guys, the real question here is can the drives handle 800hp. and higher and if so why did mine fail????????????? after 48yrs. on them??????????????????????????????????????????? because the manufacture doesn't know why?

I SAY " NO WAY " THEY CAN HANDLE THAT !!!!

But what do i know.

Or better,,,yes they can handle it but not built for it and will not handle it for long.

Bravo similar lower gears ,similar propshaft,,,,made for max 500 in a Bravo and maybe 600+ in the Konrad. ????????!!!!!!!!

If a #3 is rated for 650-700 and a #5 for 750-800 how can a Konrad be rated @ 800,,,,just look at the gears and shafts between the 2 and u know.
Better and newer then a TRS yes,,,other then that ,,mmmmhhhhh !:popcorn:

From what I can see in the photos supplied and if they are an accurate indication,

the upper appear stonger,
the lower use Merc Bravo gears and are set up better on the propshaft,
they are using an 'impeller' on the propshaft to circulate the oil, which IMO will help considerably.

What that means to your bottom line HP rating, FIIK ;), but better than a Bravo XR.

I agree,,,,but no way 800 HP .:popcorn:

After closer look I definately see what your saying,I saw the cutaway of a konrad drive at st claire BUT it might have been the funny looking,unique teeth on the upper gear had that I remember being drastically different,Smitty

And you base this OPINION on what?

When I asked Konrad why my drive failed they weren't sure they told me the uppers looked fine but the lowers are what let go? Then why did it cost me $6000 to rebuild the drives?

My two cents on the subject having spent a fair amount of time recently looking for a drive strong enough to handle a 615 BBC engine producing 800 HP (and worse than that 800 ft/lbs of torque) in a heavy boat that will have alot of prop bite.

Any type of stock drive wont get it done and the only two conventional style choices that leaves is BMax or Konrad. Seems just about anyone I mention BMax to cant tell me to stay away fast enough.....most of the negativity concerning lead times, poor customer service, and warranty issues.

That leaves Konrad which has produced just the opposite response from most industry insiders that I speak to. Most people have very positive things to say and especially concerning customer service and specifically Kurt who attempted to help out the OP some time ago.

Also, many people who I have spoken with have shared with me about the internals and design being significantly larger and improved over the typical Merc stuff and also a few mentioned that the Konrad is more of an improved/refined TRS style set-up (only quoting other peoples opinions here). Having recently seen a drive in person it certainly looks alot beefier than any XR or conventional drive....especially the upper half.

I also discussed my project in detail with Kurt and in spite of the weight/hull design we are going to push (9000 pounds in a deep V hull) he didnt flinch when I mentioned the power output (and torque output) of the application, mentioning the drive would still be "warranty-able" for a year behind that type of output. He was very comfy with the application and I could tell this guy has been around the block once or twice. He was very knowledgabe and good to talk to.

That said, in the world of anything high performance unfortunatly stuff sometimes breaks and regarding drives it also seems the general consensus is the guy weilding the throttle has a pretty direct role in the longevity of the unit. I make my living selling/designing aftyermarket high performance speed equipment and ANY type of warranty is welcomed assuming the manufacturer stands behind it. In Joe's case he was past the time alloted and that of course sucks but its no different than taking your car to a dealer in its fourth year of service after the three year warranty expired (you all know the outcome there). In either case your just SOL and its obviously frustrating and unfortunate but thats just the way it is.

We shall see how stout these drives are when I put them behind my big cruiser which is going to load them alot harder than any type of go fast boat, not to mention my engine is right at their warrantied limit so assuming it lives thats going to be impressive. Even without being hard on the throttle, with the bite of the dual prop, the amount of water I will be trying to push out of the way, and the torque this engine will be generating, the Konrad drive will have its hands full to live reliably in my set-up and I certainly hope it's as much a no brainer as Kurt seemed to think it will be.

Should have some real world info on this situation next spring as this is a big winter project I will be embarking on.

Cheers,
Tony

I have never used, nor owned, a Konrad on any of the 3 Cigarette's that I have owned. I presently have a heavy 38 flat deck Cigarette with twin 1100hp. PSI supercharged 572" BBC running either #5 SSM drives on Stellings box's or #3A's on the transom. The boat has a full interior and runs side-by-side engines. The drives all use the net forged, straight cut, upper gears and in 10 seasons of boating, in fresh water, I have never had a drive failure. The #3A and #5 drives share basically the same internal gears, bearings, seals, etc. My point is even though the #3A-#5 SSM drives have been discontinued they are, in my opinion, the strongest drive, not counting the #6 SSM. I have spare #3A drives and also spare #5 drives and have never had to use them. I have a friend with a 43 Black Thunder with 1100hp. blower motors running #3A drives with over 450 hours on them with no problems. My opinion, and it's just that, so take it from someone with experience with only Mercury #3A and #5 SSM drives is, if I bought another performance boat with big hp. I would only get it with either #3A's or #5's or #6 drives, not any of the Bravo derivatives. Just my $.02.

LOGICAL THINKING,,,because if a #5 ( 3 a ) is rated @ 800 and has bigger shafts ,gears and bearings , also 1 vertical shaft more for load seperation in lower ,then the Konrad ........HOW can the Konrad be stronger, or as strong ???????????:eekdrop:

1st. if i would call mercury to test props they would tell me come to lake X !!!
2nd. they will help , and i know for a fact . THEY HELPED ME WITH A 1991 # 4 Big shaft 2 years ago !!!
Also about the parts some are mine some are not and if u read my post then u will see that i said if i don't have it i know who does.
I also know a few people with Cig's that have parts ,,,,,don't know who u are refering to ?!

But anyhow,,,,,what drives do u have on your fountain and what kind of power ? just curious!!

Later

My 311 has TRS drives and my 302 will have aprox. 600hp to start with then I will change blowers and go up from there once I can see how the boat handles. This boat will have Konrads on it.

Cool,,,,so u don't even own Konrads yet.

The marketing u do for them .......they should give u at least 1 set for free !!!!

Other then that ...happy boating.:ernaehrung004:

I am the one with Black Thunder I have 544 hours on it with
3A's no problems with them. Big power needs big drives

DJS

No I do own a pair of them. Unlike you I have actually seen the drive both inside and out and because of that I understand how they came up with their rated HP. According to you unless a drive is built exactly like a 3A it can not handle 800hp.

Ok,,,,,now u are putting words on my tung !!!!!!!

I never said it has to be build like a #3'a or #5 !!!

But how can bravo gears withstand 800 HP ??????

I am willing to learn ,but always tell me i am wrong and can not proof that .
I can proof that a #3'a is rated for 800 !!!!!!

Anyways,,,i am out !!
If u just want to pick on me fine , but a little proof of what u say would be nice ?!
:Whatever:

I am not putting words on your "tung". You said "because if a #5 ( 3 a ) is rated @ 800 and has bigger shafts ,gears and bearings , also 1 vertical shaft more for load seperation in lower ,then the Konrad ........HOW can the Konrad be stronger, or as strong ???????????" The reality is you do not know how large the parts are on the inside of this drive. You do not know if they are using higher quality parts or anything like that. You just assume that the drive is not capable of handling what they claim. There are LOTS of aplications out there working fine at the rated HP and have not had any drive failures. Could this drive have failed due to a defective gear or something I guess that is possible, Could it have failed because the owner does not know how to drive, also possible. Does that make all their other drives junk or make them liers about the rated HP? Even #6's blow up does that mean that they are over rated? No one is questioning the quality of the #3,4,5 drive they are great drives, so is the Konrad and unlike the #3,4,5 that are outdated and you can only get used parts, Konrad you can go and buy new and repair with new parts from the factory. Even Joe Tool said that their turn around time was fantastic.

So you asked me why I am such a chearleader for the drives and you got an aswer. What is your dog in this fight. Why do you feel the need to slam a drive manufacturer for a drive that you have never seen, because of one failure? If you want to understand more about what you are spewing out your mouth then why don't you contact Konrad and maybe they can tell you about the gears and shafts so you will know. I know the deal with the gears but it is not up to me to teach you. You said you wanted to learn well that is the best way unless you buy one and take one down yourself.

Lake X is not free to anyone that wants to come down there plus you would have to get your boat there at an expense. Konrad sent their sales rep to this guys location so that they could test props and find out why his boat was not performing as he had hoped. The same sales rep answered his phone on the 4th of July a holiday for most. They repaired his drive at a discount (500 bucks is 500 bucks) a YEAR after the warrantee expired and did so quickly. I think that the customer support and service goes above and beyond most any other manufacturer in this industry.

Let's go back to the original post why did they break and why did it cost me $6000 to repair(not counting shipping cost because no one around here can fix them $350, drive plate $450,tranny reconditioned $600 and engine removal and install$750 =$8150 in repairs). The best part is that the upper gears looked great? so why so much to fix? The answer to the question do I know how to drive and throttle a boat is yes.

If the uppers are fine then I obviously you blew the lower. Could be a bad prop, what you running for a prop? What is the prop height below the hull? I would have some one check all the blades on your prop.

Yea,,,,,now that i think of it ,,,,maybe u had them on backwarts and the blades hit the superdrive and broke it ?????


HAHAHAHA:bsflag::lolhit::grinser010:

Do you even own a boat? Or are you just on here to stir up chit?

NO,,sorry i don't. Do i have to own 1 ????:party-smiley-004:

The idea DareDevil is that if the prop is cavitating or slipping especially if one blad is out it will cause the drive to lash like crazy and blow it apart.

Then i would think its not a really strong drive ????????

I mean yeah if u would do that @ 6000 RPM i guess my SSM would not like that either ,,,but come on ,,,u can't really ask a boater that question because u would definitely feel it ,,,like the boat would fall apart.:party-smiley-004:

Not really we lost a blade in a race and did not know it tell we slowed down when the lower gear set let go. It was just a very minor vibration.

I can't believe not one of you guys picked up on the REAL lesson here!!! ????

USE your boat!!!!! ( if you have one) 48 hours took over two years?? Sounds like too much time on the golf course, huh?? :)

I've got 58 hours on my Konrad....Just put it on 2 months ago!!

It's not a classic car, it's NOT appreciating while you let it sit, its Depreciating!!! so go use it!! Its costing you money even when you don't use it !! And we all know that spending money without enjoying it is just....well........you know......

I now get to drive the boat harder than I EVER was able too before - the Cheasepeake Bay is whole new playground. A TRS never lived this long behind my boat - only 600hp max, but still killed 5 TRS's in last 5 seasons - would have loved to do # 3a - but would have to raise motor for new X, build new hatch and then used parts for same $$ ??? & $1,500K props...naaaaa.......

So, it's simple......If the gentleman had rung up those hours in the first year, it would have been under warranty - and nobody would be cryin'..... :)

I'm on my 5th season and well over 400hrs with my Konrads. Just rebuilt the upper on the starb. drive for the 1st time not becuase it broke but it was showing some wear. I did brake a u joint on the same side at the end of last season and it caused some real damage and more than likely caused the gears to chafe the hardeneing on the upper gear set. The U-joint failed because the boot tore and got the joint wet. I didn't catch it.... That is an owner error not a drive failure.

I was glad I had the Konrads after it broke. I was able to buy a new off the shelf transom unit instead of having to find an old SSM III unit or weld up an old casting.

The rebuild wasn't cheap but it was no worse than any Merc drive. The parts are available and new, not old stock because the parts are NLA like so many Merc parts are. We had a customer with the same failure on his SSM IIIa's and he had to choose between an old coroded transom unit or weld his old junk. The drive rebuild alone was $7k and he still had old, outdated and obsolete drives when he was done. I have to wonder how long it will be before the old stock of Merc parts runs out since the factory doesn't have anymore?

I don't know what a SSM III is rated to for HP or torque but I do know what Konrad rates theirs to. I know I can call Konrad for tech support anytime and I mean ANYtime since Kurt answers his phone on weekends.

I don't know what the argument is here. You can order up new Konrads, you can't buy new SSM III's. Who cares how good SSM III's where, that time has passed.

Well said Lofty!!!

And I know of an Ace set up complete at a great price!! :eek:

Warranty!! since when does warrenty go on for more than a year or like,
some people in this industry thimk forever. Bullet Proof? Where that term come from? Nothing is bullet proof. Not even
#6's. Every drive out must be serviced at proper interval"s. Oil changes is were most mistakes are made in. But Bullet Proof,
no such thing exists. Bravo XR'S most of the time cost $6,000
to repair. So what's your point.