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Bravo to Arneson Conversions
Who's done it and what performance changes did you get?
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I am doing it now. I have 3 x 540 Bullgogs with Bravos on my 50' Hustler 83MPH is my top speed. with just the ASD-8's the speed should be plus 10MPH. I am also doing the motors to 700EFI's so my new speed should be just over 105MPH unless I end up with more HP than planned.
I am having Hustler fill my holes and mount the new drives. |
I'd be curious of the performance gains on a straight bottom 38' cig are. 10mph on a big boat like that is pretty impressive.
How much does the bravo conversion asd actually go for$$$? There is virtually zero used asd's out there but I have contemplated this for my old sled as well. Pretty much the only way for me to get a rooster tail and low slip numbers LOL.. Also, what are the dockside manners of an asd like when compared to a bravo? |
Originally Posted by baywatch
(Post 3249355)
I'd be curious of the performance gains on a straight bottom 38' cig are. 10mph on a big boat like that is pretty impressive.
How much does the bravo conversion asd actually go for$$$? There is virtually zero used asd's out there but I have contemplated this for my old sled as well. Pretty much the only way for me to get a rooster tail and low slip numbers LOL.. Also, what are the dockside manners of an asd like when compared to a bravo? |
About a year ago, it was $23,000 per side for the ASD7M. That is not installed nor props. Also, you will need an external water inlet. It's going to cost over $50,000. My guess would be around $55,000. Pocket Change, right?:lolhit:
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Wonder how long it takes to dial them in???
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I'm sure it's a lot of work. For my 1994 CIgarette Top Gun application, I think I would have to pull one of the motors to install an external water inlet for my water pumps. I may be wrong. I don't think installing the drives would be too hard, as the ASD7M is suppose to fit over your existing bravo 1 holes. I talked to an individual who installs these Anresons, he charges around $4000-$4500 to install the Arnesons on my Cigarette. He did not say anything about the water inlet. I would love to have some Arnesons myself, but I don't have that kind of money to spend.
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Originally Posted by UrbanDisturbance
(Post 3249616)
About a year ago, it was $23,000 per side for the ASD7M. That is not installed nor props. Also, you will need an external water inlet. It's going to cost over $50,000. My guess would be around $55,000. Pocket Change, right?:lolhit:
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Originally Posted by baywatch
(Post 3249686)
LOL. My pockets need to get a bit deeper before I can take that plunge....
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I guess it depends on dollars to return.
How much money to make enough extra horsepower to get an extra 10mph on a 70+ mph 35-45ft boat and how long would the bravos last after adding that much power and how much to beef up bravos to handle that extra power? Id say when all is said and done you would probably pretty close to the same amount either way. |
Originally Posted by HTRDLNCN
(Post 3249698)
I guess it depends on dollars to return.
How much money to make enough extra horsepower to get an extra 10mph on a 70+ mph 35-45ft boat and how long would the bravos last after adding that much power and how much to beef up bravos to handle that extra power? Id say when all is said and done you would probably pretty close to the same amount either way. |
Originally Posted by UrbanDisturbance
(Post 3249745)
That would not be a fair way to price things. It should be based on cost/profit. The drives are so expensive, that only the very wealthy can afford them. If they were prices so that the middle class could afford them, they would be on a lot more boats. If someone with a good powerboat was going to update their drives, they would most likely choose Arneson over bravo if they were priced competitively. There are a lot more middle class people than the upper class. If Arneson could increase their sales by 1000%, I wonder if it would be more profitable for them. I have been boating for 30 years, and I have not seen one boat with an Arneson drive at the lake we go to, and it's the largest lake in Texas. Nevertheless, I don't know, it may cost $20,000 to make the things. I just wish I could have some ASD7Ms. I do not like my bravos.
Price the Arnesons in relation to what one is getting, which is a complete drive kit. Take a boat with no Bravos and then build from that point and you will spend more $$ on the Bravo or Bravo derivative than you will on the Arnesons. Add in the external steering, the standoff box, the upgrades and all to "supposedly handle the power" and factor in the warranty and you are spending a lot more $$ So the middle class is being screw'd into thinking that the Bravo's are less expensive. |
Is 55k a reasonable assumption all said and done Rik ?
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arneson
Rik do you have any one you can recomend in the northeast to do an conversion install?
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Originally Posted by Rik
(Post 3249768)
I'm sorry, but we are less expensive than the Alternatives such as the new IMCO's and others.
Price the Arnesons in relation to what one is getting, which is a complete drive kit. Take a boat with no Bravos and then build from that point and you will spend more $$ on the Bravo or Bravo derivative than you will on the Arnesons. Add in the external steering, the standoff box, the upgrades and all to "supposedly handle the power" and factor in the warranty and you are spending a lot more $$ So the middle class is being screw'd into thinking that the Bravo's are less expensive. |
Originally Posted by kreed
(Post 3249781)
Is 55k a reasonable assumption all said and done Rik ?
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Originally Posted by soggy bottom
(Post 3249788)
Rik do you have any one you can recomend in the northeast to do an conversion install?
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I have PAID for 1 with all my XR repairs since I goy my GUN!
Go figure. Hind site SUCKS |
Rik. I feel for you. People ask you so many questions!!! Not just on this thread but all over. Obviously your arneson drives work. You have been in business forever. There is almost No negative post online about your product. Lots of boats run your drives but they dont seem to chime in that often to say how much they love them. My thoughts are they are actually on the water enjoying their boats! ALL "bravo" style guys are online complaining we broke or we are driving so cautious because we know we will break. If you pay attention in life there always are more negative comments about "everything" then positive. How often do you think mcdonalds call center gets a "thank you, my food was great along with my service!". LOL! Rik I promise you that when we do my conversion from these junk broke IMCO SC (with every HD upgrade made!) to the bravo arneson conversion I will post all my great results! I look forward to this spring. Since we will be spending so much time on lake michigan boating instead of parked in the garage, I will bring my air card and laptop along so I can post my results!
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I'd just like to see some real conversions examples; the performance numbers and the time to get'em dialed in. Tough to make the plunge into the unknown.
BTW how does the weight compare to the Bravo XR / ITS? |
Originally Posted by omerta one
(Post 3250229)
I'd just like to see some real conversions examples; the performance numbers and the time to get'em dialed in. Tough to make the plunge into the unknown.
BTW how does the weight compare to the Bravo XR / ITS? 382 Formula, 98 mph to 110 mph (California) 45' Excalibur, 47 mph to 69 mph (Hawaii TRS) 388 Slingshot, 92 mph to 103 (Arizona) 38 Top Gun T/S 92 mph to 102 (Russia) 32 Sunsation (single) 96 mph to 104 mph (Vermont) Now some are different and like I said a lot were new construction and power for power the cruise and the top end increases as well as the control. They have no maintenance issues, they boat and I never hear from them. I have actually learned that a lot of people do not live on the internet and a lot of my customers are not in America so they both do not speak English as a native language and they do not follow news groups like this so what can I do? |
Originally Posted by omerta one
(Post 3250229)
I'd just like to see some real conversions examples; the performance numbers and the time to get'em dialed in. Tough to make the plunge into the unknown.
BTW how does the weight compare to the Bravo XR / ITS? |
Originally Posted by Rik
(Post 3250029)
Based upon "List Prices" and adding in $5K for the installation (Kolor Kraft in Syracuse NY charges $5K to take your Bravo boat and deliver it back with the Arnesons installed) your at $51K provided you paid list prices to start with.
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Originally Posted by UrbanDisturbance
(Post 3250440)
You forgot the props. They don't come with props do they? If not, we are pushing $55,000 with used props.
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Group buy!! Lets get the price to around $10K each!!:drink:
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As a Naval Architect, I see Arneson Drives in a completely different league from the drives they are being compared to above. For instance, Arnesons are perfectly viable for commercial service in saltwater. Could you imagine a Bravo in this role pushing a commercial tourboat offshore in Alaska? I wouldn't risk it myself.
Basically Arensons aren't the disposable (and expensive) toys that most of the other products available to high-performance boaters are. That said, they are much more expensive than doing a conventional shaft/strut, but still less expensive than similarly rated waterjets. |
Rik: I pay tons of taxes. Taxes keep the government in business. The government keeps you in business. How about you hook up your sponsors?
Ever do a 2002 38 Lightning? It's a semi-stagger. Can you angle the transom assemblies to push the props closer together? Does my notch need to be filled? |
Originally Posted by 1 MAIDEN AMERICA
(Post 3254502)
Rik: I pay tons of taxes. Taxes keep the government in business. The government keeps you in business. How about you hook up your sponsors?
Ever do a 2002 38 Lightning? It's a semi-stagger. Can you angle the transom assemblies to push the props closer together? Does my notch need to be filled? No, one cannot angle the kits to get the propeller center lines closer to one another. These mount vertical only as these are not the same drives as those we angle over. Notch, ? At worst case not all of it, just the area where the drive would extend below the notch and in a full stagger this is only like 2" so a 2" tall section the width of the standoff box is all we are talking here. |
Originally Posted by Rik
(Post 3249768)
I'm sorry, but we are less expensive than the Alternatives such as the new IMCO's and others.
Price the Arnesons in relation to what one is getting, which is a complete drive kit. Take a boat with no Bravos and then build from that point and you will spend more $$ on the Bravo or Bravo derivative than you will on the Arnesons. Add in the external steering, the standoff box, the upgrades and all to "supposedly handle the power" and factor in the warranty and you are spending a lot more $$ So the middle class is being screw'd into thinking that the Bravo's are less expensive. First, I agree you have a superior product and wish so many others ordering and buying new boats would also see the light... especially since I want to see them in the used market! :D Merc just seems to have a serious strong hold on the new/package market and sadly I dont see that changing unless someone like yourself can come in much lower. And this is where I disagree (regarding you saying you're cheaper). The reality is the vast bulk of your potential market is in the USED sector. Folks wanting more power and speed, but are limited to the POS bravo platform. When these guys need to upgrade or pop a bravo, the clear options become a new/used bravo based drive, an aftermarket bravo based HP drive, or your drives. When you look at these alternatives to replace a used/broken drive, your conversion drive is BY FAR the most expensive installed/running option... by a significant margin. With that said, it's probably the BEST option if price is not figured in. When you look at $50k+ for a typical twin conversion, you can buy a lot of used bravos for that about! So I have to agree with UD above. If you could make this complete conversion to be close to even money compared to a new HP bravo upgrade, I think you'd sell the living sh!t out of these things! Just my 2 cents. |
BTW, if you dont think there is incredible interest in this conversion, just look at the number of hits on this thread in only a few days vs all the others in this sub forum!
Like I said, make the conversion affordable, and you'll sell the hell out of them. One other thing, if you started selling a ton of them in the used/aftermarket, it wouldn't take long before the OEM's would follow suite. ;) |
Originally Posted by SS930
(Post 3255163)
I agree and I disagree.
First, I agree you have a superior product and wish so many others ordering and buying new boats would also see the light... especially since I want to see them in the used market! :D Merc just seems to have a serious strong hold on the new/package market and sadly I dont see that changing unless someone like yourself can come in much lower. And this is where I disagree (regarding you saying you're cheaper). The reality is the vast bulk of your potential market is in the USED sector. Folks wanting more power and speed, but are limited to the POS bravo platform. When these guys need to upgrade or pop a bravo, the clear options become a new/used bravo based drive, an aftermarket bravo based HP drive, or your drives. When you look at these alternatives to replace a used/broken drive, your conversion drive is BY FAR the most expensive installed/running option... by a significant margin. With that said, it's probably the BEST option if price is not figured in. When you look at $50k+ for a typical twin conversion, you can buy a lot of used bravos for that about! So I have to agree with UD above. If you could make this complete conversion to be close to even money compared to a new HP bravo upgrade, I think you'd sell the living sh!t out of these things! Just my 2 cents. |
One other thing about this type of conversion is not knowing the outcome of the finished product. It scares the hell out of me to think if i was to do a upgrade like this and my boat ran slower, porpoised, did not get on plane. What then after all that money was spent. That scares me more than the money. So if someone already did it n a perticular boat thats fine but if you are the first, thats scary.
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^^^ I`ll gladly be the guinea pig for a single with a blown motor (at a reduced cost.:evilb:). I keep breaking bravos like its going out of business:kiss:
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Originally Posted by SS930
(Post 3255179)
BTW, if you dont think there is incredible interest in this conversion, just look at the number of hits on this thread in only a few days vs all the others in this sub forum!
Like I said, make the conversion affordable, and you'll sell the hell out of them. One other thing, if you started selling a ton of them in the used/aftermarket, it wouldn't take long before the OEM's would follow suite. ;) The kit includes a lot and when you add up all these parts it adds up. I could price/sell it with less items but those items will still need to be there in the end and everyone would gripe "you still need X, Y & Z" and you have to add this in. So on the front side or the back side there is a lot in the kits. From an OEM level it is less expensive by far and then throw in the warranty and the performance gains starts to look like one hell of a bargain in comparison. If one prices a complete (now this is one area which people are confused as an outdrive leg is not a complete drive unit) Bravo with all the upgrades and such they cost more than the Arnesons and no one seems to realize this. |
Is there anywhere to get Remanned/Refurbed ASD's
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Originally Posted by baywatch
(Post 3255519)
Is there anywhere to get Remanned/Refurbed ASD's
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Originally Posted by baywatch
(Post 3255519)
Is there anywhere to get Remanned/Refurbed ASD's
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Originally Posted by fountain40icbm
(Post 3255565)
There's a reason why you never see any used ones!!:D
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so is it my understanding that most boats with a notch would need to have the notched filled to some degree, because the box has to be installed lower on the transom to get the correct prop height? I have a 42 fountain with steps and like most newer boats has a notch so the Arneson would not be a direct bolt on without having work done to the bottom ? So it sounds like the Arneson drive is approx $20grand plus installation, what is the approximate $$s for a BMAX?
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Originally Posted by later
(Post 3255569)
so is it my understanding that most boats with a notch would need to have the notched filled to some degree, because the box has to be installed lower on the transom to get the correct prop height? I have a 42 fountain with steps and like most newer boats has a notch so the Arneson would not be a direct bolt on without having work done to the bottom ? So it sounds like the Arneson drive is approx $20grand plus installation, what is the approximate $$s for a BMAX?
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