surface drive
 

Hello;



Please explain me this:

- Arneson it is surface drive with "straight" shaft anf good mechanics eficiency.
- Imco, Ilmor, Mercruiser surface drives have two 90 degree transmisions and probably at least 6%, better 10% more mechanichs losses than Arneson type surface drive. They have mostly higher price than classic surface drives too.

Why so much peopeles use this Z surface drives, even on very fast racing boats although it seems that they are not so efficiency?
Where are benefits of this drive in compare with classic surface drives.


Thank you for answers!

I think stern drive design is what the industry has considered the standard. They know how to engineer their hulls so that they work well with them. Not a lot of production boat manufacturers have built straight shaft drives. There is a percieved danger to the owners with swimmers and myths about poor docking habits. Engines need to be mounted lower in the boat which is an advantage with giving a low center of gravity, but most hulls(stringer systems, etc) are not designed for it. I think it is the most efficient and reliable design and could be the least expensive to build with a comparable economy of scale. Really if you want to optimize set up of a straight shaft design to the max, the boat would need to be designed for it in the beginning.
I think the answer to your question about why is because "stern drives" are what we know!

The part where you state "the boat would need to be designed for it in the beginning" is the only gray area.

The boats designed today, as well as the setups of the boats today fall perfectly into the realm of the Arnesons. The engines being 1-2" (Bravo) lower are not an issue at all for boats, actually better as it reduces the need for taller scoops on the hatches.

Older boats (Bravo again) benefit with the newer design (#7M) as the engines do not have to be moved forward as in the past which detrimentally affected the LCG of the boat. With the #7M, all that weight stay's aft in the boat and with Mercury and Hering now making a real surface drive propeller, the older boats run better now than what we could have offered in the past.

Why a "Z" drive? Simple. People (sorry this is true for boaters especially) monkey see monkey do! Just look at the attempts certain companies have made that didn't work but people had faith in them b/c they look like an I/O/Z-Drive.

Uf!
So simply and so incredible reasons? It look like simple, but ekspencive joke.
I am really expect at least one good technician reason.

I have a 98 32 Fountain with some big smoke under the hatch. I am curious as to if anybody put arnesons on a 32 Fountain. Curious as to if the added waight would cause the rear to sit way to low as it already looks like its sinking in the water.I understand i would have to move engines foward and take out rear seat to install transmissions. Never seen a 32 with arnesons, just curious if has been done before.

No transmissions go inside boat with asd 6 Arnesons it all fits in the extention housing on the transom.

Why do people drink a certain energy drink brand?? They don't work, its not healthy, but people buy the crap! (marketing)

Why did everyone switch over to facebook instead of myspace?? When they all complained about FB and liked Myspace better.

Why do people follow each other in a single door at a shopping mall when there are a dozen doors side by side to enter?

People follow like sheep. Its fun to watch when you start paying attention to it.

ALSO, Mercury is the largest, and they package their drives with engines.

Yes I feel the Arneson is better. Some do have "drop" in the drive. Its not just a straight shaft.

Like SkiDoc explained, there is a lot of misinformation and rumors floating around that are just not true.

Reminds me of "the war of currents" when Edison had a campaign to discourage the use of Tesla's A/C current spreading lies, publicly killing animals, etc. Pretty funny what people will do for money.

Looks like history is already repeating itself, Surface drives are now becoming more popular every day, and soon every boat might have a "arneson style" surface drive!

I would love a couple of asd6 ,just dont have that sort of cash.Rick what about a couple freebees for the plug

Official Voice of Arneson
 

I say this out of humor. Kevin you should be on Riks payroll as the official voice of Arneson. Kind of like Mike Rowe is for Ford. I can see the TV and Radio commecials now!!!:lolhit:

I think most would agree that the Arnesons are a better drive system, and if priced correctly they would be hangin from the back end of many more boats! Like all marine industry parts "viewed as luxury Items" they are priced out of the average hot rod boaters range, we all know that is the truth and Arneson is not any different. Would I have Arnesons? sure, would I have #6s? sure, can I afford either? no, I'm I upset that I can't? no just gratefull I can get out on the water.

Price? I do not understand this too!

I do not know what is reall selling price, but catalouge price of small Arneson #6 drive is not higher like at comparable Z drive from "competitors" (Imco SCX4, Ilmor Indy, Mercury NXT and uper)

o.k., it is expenciver like Bravo XR, but this is not honest compare.


p.s.
I really have nothing with Arneson, I would only like to know something more.
I am make this question myself when I find web page of wery fast new OL 29 boat with Z surface drive and did not know what a hell must be this energy killer betwen prop and engine, why they not put only "straight shaft". I am make myself questions like perhaps stability, perhaps better start, perhaps more safe..., and ask this there in this forum.


Sorry for language, I hope that you all understand what I want to ask. Newer the less I live few thousand milles from USA and more than thausand miles from UK too...

Sinus

You are correct, the Arneson Drives are VERY competitively priced...VERY. You get A LOT for your money, and you spend around the same money as the competition, sometimes even less.

But like was mentioned before, the Rumors have made people believe that a Arneson cost more, even though it does not.

I don't care if someone wants a SCX-4 over the Arneson 6/7, or a Mercury #6 over a Arneson 8, but tell us the REAL reason, not some "rumor" you heard from mis-information.

Good news though! There are some new boats with Arnie's being built!

Doesn't an ASD6/7 have the same size prop shaft and u joints as a ssm6? I know the week link in the ASD6 is the gears in the drop box, the 7 addresses this problem. (along with a thicker tube and larger skeg)

The Asd conversion kit is the best deal going. if you factor in everything from steering, transmission, drive etc. plus you can then sell all of you old stuff and recoup some of the costs.

look at the prop height on OL29 its way high, It "looks" to be even with the bottom or maybe even above. I'm sure a big part of why the run it with a bravo goes back to what people are comfortable with. And it is sold as drive engine package. I'm sure OL will fill the notch and Put an ASD on it if you want.

For the rumors..there are..

Have the stinger 312 with trs before.
Rumors are hard in here where live, some says u can only go one speed (fast), problems to plane, total handling problems in harbours, dont by boat with arnesons u buy problems.

Well make my move and buy the cat with asd8.
With surface props have had any proplems at any situation. Planing goes like nothing with more or less throttle, havent see any difference with harbour handling can put boat roll circle like trs also can slow speed drive/steer with one engine and boat is the cat.

Iam very happy with those drives. Also what i have learn the ASD8 are strong no need to worry the drivesystem like many others..

Seems to me in the late 80's more boats had surface drives on them, Amesons and KAMMA,,

I think that is spelled right.

I have seen the light.

yup

How's the Hustler coming along?

If you are serious, call Rik, the drives are very competitively priced.

This is not the question on thhis moment. On our ptototype boat we have MSA Marine surface drive, we are really satisfyed with it, but on the seccond build we will probably install Arneson to see all diferences.

Is it Arneson good with one drive to? I am hear that it work only with two. Is this mit or true?

I am ask this questions to know something more round of Z-drive and classic surface drives. I am ask my self why have expencive and wery fast OL 29 so conventional drive for example.
In my minds are walking questions like:"Perhaps stability, perhaps hydrodinamic drag, perhaps trim possibility?" And after, when I did not find any resonable answers, I am ask there.

On this moment still have no one resonable answer if look only technically aspect and forget marketing politics.

At our project we do not looking more than 75 mph, but extra fuell efficiency at speeds betwen 45 and 60 mph. Other questions we salve, only there with drive we need to hear experiences from other peopeles, best infos probably we will find there in this forum.

What kind of boat and power do you have?

In existing boat we have self marinised engine maded from two Suziki Hyabusa. They have 380 bhp and really good torque at start, they weight less than 400 # completelly with heat exschanger and exhausts. Same time they have good fuell efficiency ower all rpm field. On boats for salle we will have this engines or Ilmor V8-6,2 with 430 hp, depend of customer choice.
Existing weight of boat it is 3950#, but with Ilmor will be 500 # more. Lenght it is 28,8 ft.
It is quite fast, but our idea it is more in efficiency on long travelling for all familly. If you are alone with out of children, you could go faster too if you want.



p.s.
Rik, we talk round of this two years ago. Becouse of this world crisis we not push this project to much, but this year will be the time for all CE certificates and sale.

Few fotos, but have in minds, that this is prototype, nothing more!
http://shrani.si/f/2K/3Y/1NWZKa4N/slika-299.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/1z/LB/3HoU5nYq/slika-304.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/8/UK/3tQ6H0YY/slika-298.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/1M/QQ/2DqFkZc4/191120112875.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/1Q/8A/dNIqQaL/191120112855.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/I/pW/18pN5hMS/191120112862.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/42/Jd/1BxqnFVn/fotografija0091.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/3u/Qp/1aqNsRvz/20090716image0084.jpg

Cow will be gone this spring, needs interior installed, gauges, sound system and then see if it runs.

Looks great! Any pictures of the hyabusa engine?

@4bus;


Sorry, but on this moment we have no fotos. For test to se if they are good enough for use we are put together two engines and connect them together simple with double originall chains. They work really great and just in this time we make "finally" solution with classic closed gear box. It is funy how small they are. We put them under back seats and winn hughe usefully space.
For start we palne to build same thing like Radical, but it take to much speciall parts and it means troubles at service. Our solution it is much more simple, we will screw together two busa engines. It will work like Radical, but with all seriall parts and 20 kg more, which mean 120 kg.
Our first exhaust we build 1-2-4 and classic inside dry mufflers. At tests we find, that this engines have enough torque for 1-4 exhaust and classic marine gatlin 4" mufflers are good enough to keep amost al power.

Aprox. in two months we will have fotos of engines.

By Radical ,do you mean Hartley Enterprise , that made the cilinder block and crank to use 2 cilinder banks and heads ,rods and pistons from 2 Hayabusa engines ? and convert to a V8 high rev engine ?

Where do you live in Europe ?

Is this the formula car engine?

No Its hyabusa heads on custom block etc. looks to be way short on torque.

http://www.radicalperformanceengines...Macroblock-v8/

At 3300 rpm on prop shaft have excelent torque curve. At first start we scare round of torque, but with out of any reasons.

@Stirling;
Slovenia, 1,5 km from Austrian border. We did not put them on single block like Hartley. It seems to risky for boat use. We screw them together with montage plate to achive "V8" block.
On one engine we pull power with original shaft and at other engine we pick up new shaft directly from clutch side. For this we made new part of engine. We change oil carter to, to avoid air sucking from oil pump.
With more smoth headers and inox air intakes we achive better power. For originally lambda number we need to change gass quantity for 12%!

Exhaust at the production.
http://shrani.si/f/9/31/2XberNvm/dscf3680-copy-1.jpg


First test. We are totally "loss our heads" becouse of to much adrenaline before start and later we decide, that we will no more made any videos before officially presentation. At this ride we have 20" prop and we achive only ca 50 mph, but enough for first minutes.
http://www.google.si/url?sa=t&rct=j&...42261806,d.bGE

Those look like the engines they use in those British formula cars. Real neat looking engines if they had more displacement they would be a good boat motors

Boatless you are correct ,They use these Hartley Enterprises V8 in Britisch cars for road racing and or uphill climbs etc.

[QUOTE=professor_speed;3865987]No Its hyabusa heads on custom block etc. looks to be way short on torque.

For such a small high reving engine isn,t it normal to produce torque numbers like this ?

I agree, that toque it is not bigg if you look it with engine rpm, but this is normally. I am convinced, that you must compare torque on the prop shaft and this is at least the same like at the best marine engines with comparable output power. I see the biggest benefit on the torque curve. From 4.500 to the 10.000 rpm it is almost on same level. It is like from 2250-5000 rpm on bigg block engines.
Aniway, we will test it if it worth and offer this or Ilmor 6,2 V8, perhaps even orange Ilmor. In any case we will try to destroy this engine with classic ride like with other engines and same time we hoope that it will survive this 300-400 really hard hours which we will try to made in this year. If will work will work, if not will forgot it.

you are correct if you can gear it low enough and make it up with RPM then it should work.

So, what about getting a few more mph out of surface drives. Is this proven? I've read you can pick up some speed from less drag. I'm going to be upgrading my panther drives sooner or later, and I wanna have some real stout drives. I was thinking kamma or ameson, but I haven't looked at other options.

How well do the ameson 6 hold up under say 700 or so hp.

The #7M's are rated at a very conservative 850 hp

Hello;


New questions for experts.

1.) In Z drive (Mercury XR for example) you have cca 8% more mechanically losses than with straight surface drive.

2.) If you use Z drive like clear surface drive with notched transom, you have same hydrodinamic efficiency like at classic surface drive. Correct?

3.) In 550 hp range it is classic surface drive (with transmission gear box) cca 200 pounds more heavy like Z drive.

4.) If I put in BAM calculator BHP datas for surface drive and 8% less power for Z drive, I recive almost same results for both, becouse of less weight with Z drive.


Please comment, I am really curious what is thruth there.

Where do you get that weight? I know the #7M is 5 lbs heavier with the cast iron transmission than a Bravo on a box. With 550 hp and use of the aluminum velvet drive the surface drive would save 32 lbs over the Bravo

I take it from tech datas:
- Bravo 120 #
- ZF 63A 100#

And Bravo do not need ZF. Arneson need it?
Probably I am miss something (I hope, I am "stick drive" fan!)? Perhaps 120# at Bravo1?