89 octane in 600's
 

Getting ready to deliver a new 382/600 boat.Buyer just found out no 91 octane available anywhere he boats, and he isn't buying a trailer. A couple of tech guys told him 89 wouldn't hurt it,just might not develop absolute full power. He isn't concerned about speed,just reliability and warranty .He is going to call Merc Racing for guidance. Depending on what they tell him,thr sale may go astray.Anyone have any good ideas?

Hey magicfloat I think 89 WILL hurt the motors. Get yourself to an auto parts store and pickup some octane boost supplement. Had a customer here that ran it for years in his 525/454 boat because there was no 91 available near his house. I believe there is a brand called 101 Octane Boost that works real well.

As with any EFI engine, they should have knock sensors that will detect whether or not timing needs to be backed off. Whether they can run continuously that way, I don't know. I've been running my 382 with Innovation 600's on 89 octane (92 recommended) for 8 years, and everything looked good when I opened them up this winter for valve springs, but those are injected 540's not supercharged 502's. I suspect there may be less tolerance in the Merc 600's, as they are being worked much harder, particularly from the viewpoint of gross hp per cubic inch.

Looks like I lost the sale,Merc told him no way,no additives,and no warranty. Sometimes I wish I had a son so I could forbid him to go into the boat business.Who would have expected this? When I bought Karen a new BMW M last year,they said it must use 91,no big deal,all land stations have 91,apparently many marinas up north don't.He already bought a new lift,new insurance,paid off the old boat,and closed on the loan,had a check waiting for me Tuesday.What a mess.

How about a tank at his house and have 91 delivered? Many of us that here in Virginia.

Don't give up, even if you have to be the one to make the calls to find a local fuel tanker. He doesn't even need to store it at the house, just pump it straight to the boat. LOTS of people down here in FL have tankers bring diesel and gas to their docks. Chances are, it'll be cheaper than a marina's prices.

Good luck.

I was thinking the same thing...I know "excursion" has a 500 gallon tank at his house and actually pays LESS for 93 octane gas then at the regular land stations....This might be a problem here since it would be placed next to the water...try this though and good luck getting it put together Robert.

Hey Robert.....sell him my 35 hour 540's (630HP) and put those 600's in my boat!!!! :)

I can understand why Mercury said no way at 89 octane as there is a liability issue concerning the warranty. IMHO, 89 Octane with a good octane boost should work. Torco Racing Fuels sells concentrated racing gas that they'll ship to your house. As for octane boost, Supreme 130 by Kemco is probably the best concentrated octane boost available. It's not cheap, but it works. www.kemcooil.com

Why don't you trade the 600s out for 525s from another in stock boat? You're saying he's not concerned about the speed and the 525s should be very respectable in the boat.

Already thought of that but customer is not comfortable with that,plus issues down the road with warranty on the 353 I would use for the swap,in addition to adding 25K to the cost of the 353 ,makes that sale even tougher. May be a solution tho,he may buy my 353/525 boat now,and trade it next year for a 382/525.I wonder if car dealers have to get this creative to make a sale? Nah,they they just get online and do a dealer trade.But that's no fun,right? The boat business is fun,right?Thanks for the suggestions,I appreciate ya'll.Maybe I can save this deal.Robert

Good luck Robert, us car guys do get "creative" at times

Robert
try to contact Eric Christiansen at mercury racing
he developed the 600 ! I do not want to make this public due to certain reasons

we had this issue even bigger in Europe
due to the fact that 91 octane is not available in Europe at all
the manual for Europe says "98 octane RON" which is your 93 octane
There are several countries in Europe that do not sell this 93 octane at all, so customers have to import their fuel from another country :angry-smiley-038:

93 octane is only available at car stations
At the docks all over Europe 90 octane is available

So we tell our customers - official you have to carry your fuel in cans for your 400.000 $ boat - but if you do not might losing your warranty use an octane booster
I know some owners in Denmark that run the 600 on 90 octane without any trouble

Funny Thing : The new 662 SCI EU which is specially designed for Europe needs fuel that is nowhere available at European Docks - very smart :hitfan:

any questions

contact me at [email protected]

There was an article a few years ago in Speedboat Magazine that also says that the 600 run fine on lower octane fuel because of its knock sensor
I think they tested two 382 Fas Techs one with the old 575 `s and one with the 600 `s
Maybe someone still has this test

ARE YOU KIDDIN' ME???
Sounds like it's designed for European racing only - not consumers. I'll have to go re-read that press release. :p

My manual on the 600s says it is OK in the case you can't get higher octane - so in case of emergency. Computer will retard the timing. But it also says run it easy until you can get 91 or above. Basically it is for emergencies.

That's what we are working on now.Anyone have any contacts in Mystic,CT?

Getting more complicated. Customer called Kemco and was told their octane booster would work,but would foul the O2 sensors,and would require frequent replacement. I thought lots of folks used Kemco.is this an issue?

Robert,

We carry gas to the boat. Recently I tried blending about 25% 89 from the marina, the knock sensors on both engines went off immediately as I throttled up leaving the marina. The smartcraft put the engines in a low performance mode. We idled home and topped off with 93. We cannot find a home delivery that will bring 93. Tell your customer that it is worth the effort.

O2 sensors on a 600 SCi ? I don't think that the 600 SCi's have O2 sensors. I don't have 600 SCi's so I don't know, but I would be surprised if that is the case. Is this really true ?

I am also in Denmark and have Scorpion engines that require 98 RON (91-92 PON). Boat is kept in the water so I have the same problem. There are very few gas stations on land that have the high octane fuel here because of the MTBE content, but I am lucky that there is one gas station in my town that has the high octane fuel and it is on my way to the boat :) so I also use cans to carry the fuel and really it is no problem. If I go for a longer trip and need to refuel at a marina to be able to return home I carry an octane booster.

You can buy products like this: http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=139 that makes it easier.

You are correct. My error.Thanks

I know some 600 users using this poduct with success with the 600 `s

After lots of posts on different sites and lots of emails from folks I trust,general consensus seems to be that 600's not run hard will be fine on 89 with Kemco boost as added insurance. But telling the buyer that troubles me,I don't want to cause him a problem. Am considering having him log on to OSO,check this thread,and let him make the call.I would rather lose the sale than mislead him.Your thoughts?

Problem is If you tell him its ok you will marry that boat and every problem will be because of that.I personally think it would be fine with some octane boost.Or filing up halfway with cans of 93,(1/2 89 1/2 93) will be cheaper to but it has to be his call.Put him into the 353 its a big 35 and he will probably be very happy.Won't a 353 with 525s be faster than a 382 with 600s anyway? Good luck

This may be the toughest sale I have been involved in in 42 years as a dealer.Customer is a great guy,we have become friends since he bought a 353/496 boat from me last year.353/525 and 382/600 are about the same speed.+/- a little. But he is not into speed,he likes the big boat feel,and the genset,doubt he will run over 65mph more than a few minutes in a season.Obviously,for warranty and liability purposes,Merc Racing goes by the book,as do I.I'm sure he will be fine with 89 and 93 when he can find it,and octane booster when he can't. But I was clear in explaining that my thoughts will be overridden by Merc if a fuel related failure occurs.He is going to make a decision Monday,382 or 353,and my driver will leave Tues with one. I have done all I can,covered all bases,and offered to walk away completely,and he will still have his 04 353,but he said no,he wants a new boat next week. It will be his call completely.Sometimes I miss the old days when the only decision a buyer had to make was did he want a 65 hp Merc or an 80 hp Merc on his 15' Glastron,it was a big price difference of $400

Can you just order a 383 with the options that would make it work better for him? Or swap that boat with another dealer.....

Robert,
pull the 600's out of the boat and trade formula for some 525's they have. Hopefully they have aboat they can put the 600's in.

The best part is it sounds like you and the customer have a great relationship. Good luck to both of you with his decision. My guess is he will be fine with the boost considering how he runs. I always ran 93 in mine and never had a problem.

Hope it turns out well....:D

The 382 leaves in the morning headed north. We got the issue worked out. This was a very frustrating deal but it did have a happy ending after all for everyone.

CONGRATZ BIG DADDY :cool-smiley-027: Sounds like you'll be havin a few drinks after that one :D

Another option (though it would void warranty, as little warranty there is on Merc racing engines) is to have the ecu reprogrammed for lower octane fuel, since the boost(wastegate) and timing in that engine are ecu controlled it would not be a big deal to have it tuned to safely run lower octane fuel, probably give up 50-75 horsies though.

Actually,all Formulas,even 600's,have a 5 year engine and drive warranty thru an outside company called SeaSafe,a company that has been great to deal with. But I got all that covered,customer is happy,I'm happy,bank is happy,my contract driver is happy. And yes a drink or 2 tonight,just sold my 370 and one of my tradein 353's. The reports of the death of the marine industry have been somewhat premature. It may not be great,but it is looking up.Not out of the woods yet,but getting a little closer everyday.

Thats pretty damn sweet, 5 year warranty on the merc race stuff. Formula has got it going on!

Wow! Robert glad to hear it has all worked out for the both of you.

JB

Sweet-talker......:p

phazar is right. Boats USUALLY don't have O2 sensors for good reasons

1) water vapor in the exhaust will kill an O2 sensor very quickly.
2) Boats run a pretty straightforward engine load/throttle opening curve and do not require a closed loop dynamic map for engine operation like a car does.

Boat ECUs are usually mapped aainst a standard load curve, and MAP sensors, coolant temp sensors, knock sensors, throttle position sensors, engine speed sensors, ambient baro and air temp sensors are usually the whole shebang for the realm of boating fuel and spark curve management.

Besides, when is the last time you saw an O2 sensor sticking out of the side of a CMI tailpipe?

Take a peek and then you'll know..

mc

No, they do not have 02 sensors. The Torco octane booster works really well, but it WILL kill the spark plugs quickly so it's good for emegency, but not common use. I've used it thousands of times in cars and some boats, but spark plugs just don't like it.

I can tell you though, the 600sci will run on 89 octane, 87 is borderline, but 89 will run and will not detonate. Mercury Racing keeps a very large margin for bad gas, hot temps, hot water, overheat, plugged filter, etc. so the 89 will have less margin for error, but with everthing being right, it will certainly run and make 600hp.

I also have some intercooler upgrades that will help it by taking another 25deg F from the system.

Thanks,
Dustin

Trick would be to knock a few deg's of timing out of it, will lose a few hp's, but I bet you won't see much of a difference.

Also keep in mind, you could slap a set of the Etec heads from Edelbrock on this engine and you'll basically make the same power, but you can easily do it on 87 octane.

Thanks,
Dustin