hey ya'll
 

Figured I'd come on in and say hello. Sprink58 suggested a good while back to check the site out, and I finally made it here. I have a '87 223, that was basically bought for the hull and trailer. She was and still is in sad shape in some areas. it was originally a 260hp 5.7 fuel injected boat, by the time I got to it, it had a 305 2 barrel truck engine in it. Lots of jury rigging and neglect. Interior trashed, repaint at some point that wasn't done well and so on. Done a lot of wiring work(with lots more to go), replaced some interior vinyl myself and had the bucket seat professionally redone. I'm almost 1 year into what will be a several year project. Trying to get mechanical items taken care of before most of the cosmetics. Have replaced the outdrive(alpha one) with a SEI unit after blowing it up. And headlong into a 305 to 454 swap. I see a few familair names from the formula forum here, hello to all!

Well it took long enough... LOL. Welcome and enjoy...much more active bunch than on the Formula forum as I'm sure you have noticed.

Yes sir sprink, lot more activity. Nice to see a lot of others head long into projects on some good ole 'birds. Seen you've made alot of progress on your gal, hope it has been without too many speedbumps. If I can ever get my friggin head gaskets, I may actually get my engine together. As long as my push tube lengths checkout, I'm will have everything for my engine, minus carb and a few small parts. And a outer transom plate, since the hole the gimbal bearing presses into is oversized... Really like your post and pictures on the alpha to bravo setup, that is a future upgrade on the list, as after this big block swap, paint and interior next year, I'm gonna go headers, a lot more camshaft, and will def have to step up to a bravo drive then.

Finally got my engine together! Now hunting down small parts. Anything special about the oil pumps on marine apps? or can I use a standard Melling M77 for it(95 GenV 454HO).

Also, I'm debating on ditching the remote oil filter mount, as I have plenty of access to the filter pad. My concern is, is there a different psi oil bypass in the block, or any issues I should be aware of by doing this?

Another issue, is I bought a bracket kit that mounts the alternator and steering pump down low, and my units Im reusing from my small block are serpentine setups, I have got to convert to a v-belt setup to use with my 2 groove crank pulley. My alternator and pump are in fine working order, so just need to do a pulley swap, anyone got a good lead on v-pullies? (No water pump, using a water crossover kit on this engine)

Some pics of the old Bird
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3&l=f60217d389

Stay after it Hoss...looks like you have it goin' on. Check the swap shop here for your want list. Fenderjack aka John Sr has some BBC Bracket stuff I'm sure he will part with along with what ever else you need. send him a PM with your list...he probably has it all.

Thanks Sprink.

Oil pump, timing cover gasket, and front oil seal will arrive in the morning. I'm going to take the steering pump to advance auto, and just try to size up a pulley there. I've decide to just buy a new alternator for now, and replace the pulley on my old as a spare when I get around to it

I already have a bracket kit, but I will peruse the swap shop and see if theres any other goodies. I still need a msd box and a carb for this thing, a throttle bracket, a oil dipstick, a few other small odds and ends.

I'm trying to find a sure answer about the oil bypass in the block, anyone know? or know where to point me?

Also, on the interrupter switch on the shift bracket, should I wire it in on the power side of the MSD box, Or wire it between the box and distributor? As the only wires from the box to distributor will be the 2 magnetic pickup wires that plug right into the box...

Ahh, all the small time consuming missions..

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3&l=f60217d389

Welcome to the forum.
Your good with the standard oil pump. Nothing special for marine there. The oil bypass in the marine application is up at the filter mount. In auto it is in the block adapter for the filter but in marine the block adapter is only a pathway and the restrictor/bypass is mounted up at the remote filter mount. The bypass value is higher for marine than auto. That part must be kept the same or excessive bypass will cause oil temps to rise. I can't recall the exact numbers at the moment but marine is higher.

@ Aquaforce, I decided to use a Mellling M77HV, since I have a 9qt pan. I spoke with a marine engine builder, said since I have plenty off access, ditch the remote filter mount and just use the block pad. Said the bypass in my block is fine, since its a factory Merc block. he did suggest to use a Baldwin B279 filter, as it has good burst strength and something about it has an oil bypass built in.

Baldwin filters are dual pass for the majority of their stuff so I'm guessing this recommendation of Baldwin is for the high volume to flow.


Do you have an oil cooler?

I bumped up a 454 to squeeze a little harder so I had to get a bigger oil cooler for my engine.

Do you have an oil cooler?

Not yet, looking into one though. Looking at the air cooled ones, as I'm not sure on how to plumb up a water cooled type. Plus, since I'm not using a water pump on this engine, I'm not sure if the pump in my drive will push enough water for everything.

As far as you bumping one up to squeeze harder, did you turn more rpms or just bump up the power out put? I'm still new to boat engines, but it seems like if my motor is running 150 to 165 degrees, oil temps shouldn't be an issue..??

I'll give ya'll some more info to guide me upon, here's my engine specs:

1995 Gen V 370ho 4 bolt block, forged crank and pistons, 7/16" rods 325cc rectangular port heads
Honed and new cam bearings
crank turned 10/10
reused the pistons after cleaning them up and used Hastings Moly rings
Heads had .030 milled,v valves ground and vacuum checked and magnafluxed, springs seats were opened up for a 1.850 spring, removed factory non/adjustable rocker studs and installed arp rocker studs, 1.7 ratio Cam Dynamics roller rockers
Using Mercruiser #1622 roller cam, that I degreed in to a 106 ICL, retrofit roller lifters.

Well I stroked it from 4" to 4 1/4", jacked up the compression to 9.6 and punched it for 496 cid. With the extra squeeze on the bearings from this power increase the oil temps go up with it from added pressure on the bearings. Rpm's won't go above 5,500 for the most part but the cam is rated at 6,200.

What will your compression ratio be? As this goes up the oil temps are what determines the cooler need.

THat motor stock from merc had a small water cooled oil cooler on it. Normally on the port side mounted down around the pan rail area. With a typical marine CR the stock one can still work for you but if you mod the engine beyond, I think I have been told 70hp, then the cooler needs to start ramping up. The impeller in the drive does just fine on the Alpha to get the water up through the coolers and into the engine so I would expect yours to do ok.

I suppose you could use air cooled but I haven't seen it done.
The longer the throttles are on the dash the faster the oil heats up. The engine can control at say 165-180 and the engine oil temps exceed 230° fast with hard driving or high HP.

My compression was 8.6 stock, and with .030 off the heads, I doubt its more than 8.7 now. I plan on propping the boat to around 5k wot, but have been told my bottom end will take 5500 no problem. my goal is 70 mph gps with this old girl.

i see what you're saying about the engine temp and the difference of the oil temp. Looks like I'm gonna hunt up an oil cooler, as my block didn't have the cooler adapter or oil filter adapter on it when I bought it.

Thanks for the input, this is my first boat and quite a learning experience.

Oops... Double tap

Don't forget to set aside some $$$ for one more little goody you're going to need with all that power and torque....Bravo:evilb:

I know, I know.lol Hopefully I can get this season and next season out the Alpha with a little luck and careful throttle application. I fully intend on a bravo swap after paint and interior is done while I get some water time with her. Also plan on better manifolds or headers at that time, along with a way more aggressive cam shaft. I've been looking around at some bravo parts, I think I could put one together reasonably priced.

This being my first boat, its still new and fun, also it does hurt to make mistakes that cost time and money. I f I had known I was gonna put a big block in her, I def wouldn't have bought a new alpha replacement, instead I would have started the bravo swap.

I know about learning this stuff. My engine building has been a huge learning curve. Coming from drag racing I expected an easy slide. I learned very fast marine is a different animal.

I had nearly the same interest; 70 MPH with a build up and 500 HP. I can tell you that it takes 500hp or better with at least 9.1 CR to hit 70 with 24' and 24 deg deadrise. If you want 70mph you can do it with an Alpha. Holding that speed for long durations will really strain it but all the 87 production 7.4l were paired with Alpha.

I know about learning this stuff. My engine building has been a huge learning curve. Coming from drag racing I expected an easy slide. I learned very fast marine is a different animal.


Same here! Wow, what a difference, and learning real quick how basically de-tuned the engines are. I know full well with my engine, with just a lil compression boost, more timing than the 30 degrees I plan to run, and good exhaust she would make a nice street motor!

I thought the 223ls was really a 22' with 23deg deadrise??? he swim platform was counted in the total length for 24ft?

I'm estimating 475hp, really hopes it hits the 70mph mark. if not, after paint and interior, a bigger bumpstick and headers oughta do it! I'd really like headers now, as my exhaust is really keeping this engine from getting past my estimated output... But I'm already past the max power for my Alpha anyhow..

Hell Mason...you're starting to push the limits of a standard Bravo now!!! You might as well pick up a spare Alpha to have ready when the SEI you have now blows. At least you'll have a get by until they send you the warranty replacement.

But you know what...as long as you are on a lake and not too far from home it's no big deal. As for me...I cant afford to be 20~30 miles offshore halfway between Florida and the Bahamas and have a drive failure.

My brother in Destin is doing a '83 F3 with a 454 on Bravo I now....gonna be interesting how it turns out. there is a dude down here that has one (F3) with a 454 on a Bravo...runs 65 easy but porpoises bad over 70. He's running a 25" Mirage 3 blade with 1.5 gears.

I know of a certain 242 as a reference to the speed and required power. Since your running/wetted length is less and boat weight is less a little lower power would be required for the same speed.

Simply put, marine is about making power under full detonation conditions. Tough challenge. Most high HP marine engines could be cammed different on the street to make some serious ground shaking power.

Don't sweat the Alpha too much. It will hold with you for a good while. I got all into getting rid of my Alpha when it had one more issue than I cared to fix. Swapping out for the Bravo1 and getting everything it needed and doing it right got into some money and time. I have changed my 242SS to a Bravo1 system since I stroked this 496 but the previous Alpha was living fine behind a 400hp 454.

But you know what...as long as you are on a lake and not too far from home it's no big deal. As for me...I cant afford to be 20~30 miles offshore halfway between Florida and the Bahamas and have a drive failure.


Sprink, you're 100% right. My lake isnt too big, so even if i get stranded bc a grenaded drive or engine, I have plenty have crackers and beer onboard to survive on before I get a tow. Now if I was in your shoes, I def would have a different outlook.

Aqua- I know my static compression is about 8.6/8.7, that was the reasoning of me advancing my cam to a 106icl from the factory 109, wanted to build some extra cylinder pressure without milling a ton off the heads or swapping pistons. this engine has been a budget build, but with decent parts. I have less than 5k in the engine still, even with purchase price included. It was a running engine when I bought it, minus the fact #6 had 100psi. which turned out to be a valve issue, but since I had it tore down, and the crank was a little iffy, decide to hone the bores, cut the crank and a new set of rings was in order.

The cool thing about this is that we all get to sit back...you included and " cogitate and conversate" about when and if it happens...hell...they might last several years.

Reminds me of a '65 Impala SS my cousin in Birmingham had with a 250 horse 327 and a power-glide.

[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...et-00191-1.jpg[/IMG]

The car had over 100K miles on it when my uncle turned it over to my cousin and it had always had 3000 mile oil and filter changes. We put cams, headers, intakes, Dart heads and all kind of crap on that old 327 and would throw the PG in neutral, catch 4000 rpm and slam it in low when we were racing a Trans Am or 5.0 Juiced Mustang!!! I swear to God the motor and tranny never broke and that that big old car would run in the high 13's and 105 mph in the 1/4:evilb:

Just goes to show you that a lot of this stuff is over engineered and you might never have a problem.

Sweet Car Sprink! love the old bowties!


Ok ye wise brethren of Formulas, need some info.

My Gimbal plate is fubar(the hole where the gimbal bearing goes is oversized), and I need to replace it. Not gona put a ton of money on this, as a bravo upgrade is planned for later. My unit is a alpha one gen 1. Ive been looking around, and need to know, are the 4-6-8 cyl assemblies all the same, or are they different. Going to be looking at a few this weekend, but honestly, I don't know the difference.

Thanks for any input!

The outside transome plates are the same for the most part. The majority of the differences are in the drive where the gear ratio's are different based on the available hp.


If price and availability is an issue a good machinist can tig up the material and turn it back down to hold the bearing.

The only other thing to be cautious of is to make sure you get an Alpha Gimbal and not a "Pre-Alpha". They look the same and the drives will interchange with no problem...the issue is that your Alpha I steering ram will not match up to a "Pre Alpha" Gimbal. Check this link out that explains the differences.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-P...ht_2081wt_1065

Now...to be ultra safe...take your existing piece with you to match them up.

Good luck with this.

No luck on the gimbal plate this weekend, so still looking. Got the engine wrapped up on the bottem, then went to install intake and realized I had the wrong gaskets, so yet another delay. Still got lots of small parts coming in, surely but slowly coming together.

Mocked up power steering and alternator, and realized I'm gona have to buy a new alternator, as the bracket set I bought won't work mine, and to think I already found a new pulley switched over, only to figure out it was a waste of time....

Starting to look like something now!
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...99287177_n.jpg

Engine is officially done, minus installing my carbon fiber wrapped valve covers! Finalized the pulley setups, installed new alternator, plumbed up water crossover, now to make a run for fluids, sparkplugs, and belts.

Still need a carb, but I'll grab it after its in the hull. I may go ahead and set the msd distributor in and mock up how I want to run the plug wires.

Still a lot a work to get done before my June 1st deadline( racing for a $100 bar tab at a local place on the lake), but I may actually make it happen...

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=f60217d389

Well, finished up the few small odds and ends on the engine. It has been primed, spark plugs and wires installed, dropped the distributor in after finding TDC, belts on and adjusted!

Received my valve covers and they look great! They are the stock diecast, that after installing my wide body roller rockers, I mocked up and found that all the oil drippers had to be ground off. Also some minor buffing on two spots. And also had to radius the corners of 2 rockers to clear. Minor stuff really. And I much rather use these covers than aftermarket crap that leaks all the time. A buddy of mine owns a hydrographic coating company, has done these covers, my timing cover, some other odds and ends, even coated my Glock 31. Great work done by him. I may have him do some other work on the boat as well.

Waiting on another buddy to come by with his bobcat and use the forks to set the engine the hull. And have a backhoe lined up just in case the bobcat can't get high enough.

Still haven't found a Gimbal plate, working on that though. Gonna concentrate on getting the engine all hooked up for now.

Not gonna make my June 1st deadline, but hell, trying to do it as best as I can and not have any issues once on the water. Plus life has its own scheduling trip ups. Soon enough, though, will I get to hear her purring!
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3&l=f60217d389

Finally got the engine in! It was a wonder of redneck engineering, that included a flat bed wrecker, a cherry picker, some straps and chains, but it worked and nothing or no one was harmed during the process.

Now I can start working on hooking everything up, along with ordering my carb, ignition box, coil, water/fuel separator and a few other goodies. Going to be busy the next few weeks, really want to get this on the lake, for on July 4th is a great time, and there is a huge fireworks show to be seen while on the lake.

A few new pics added, checkout the well thought out engine lifting system! lol

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=f60217d389

Good Job...Like Hank Jr says "A country boy can survive":evilb:

I. Am. A. Moron. Didn't realise the engine had to be out to remove the outer transom plate. Figured that out last night when I finally decided to pull the outer plater off. And it wouldnt be so bad, but there has been no engine in it for the past 6 months, with me knowing the whole time I had to pull the plate. I wont EVER make that mistake again. So now to pull the engine back out!!!:traurig001: Got to love the growing pains and learning curve with a new hobby.....

On a side note, anyone ever pull the plate without removing the engine? thinking of putting a bottle jack and block of wood under it, and then removing the bellhousing mount to transom bolts, and then remove the bellhousing for more room to the inner plate.

Oh, and Im gonna go bang my head on a tree some mor for this goof up..

Im not a moron, im a redneck engineer. 2 bottle jacks under the manifolds allowed me to pull the gimbal plate. i bought a complete used gimbal assembly locally, for $400, and installed it after tearing it down, cleaning it up and installing a new hoses, seals and such. i had my local marina align the engine after installation of the Gimbal assembly.

Finished all my wiring, fuel and water plumbing, and took the boat out for the first trip this year after tuning it in the driveway. It didn't go so well.....

Engine is starving for fuel! Got 3000 rpm briefly, and then the engine dies. Basically, I can maintain 1200 rpm under load, if I blip the throttle, the it will climb as high as 3000 before the accelerator pump shot dries out. while I was on the water, I tried these here as process of elimination:

Verified had fuel coming out of pump to carb ( couldn't check it for long, as I was spraying fuel into my bilge, so no idea if it was a good constant flow)
Removed inline filter before pump. no help.
Bypassed fuel/waterseperator. no help.
bypassed mechanical pressure regulator. no help.
Removed fuel cap, to see if I had a venting/vacuum issue. no help. replumbed pump to where the pump was 4" away from tank pickup. no help.
rewired pump from switch, to battery 2' away with thicker gauge wire. no help.
Tomorrow, I'm gonna plumb in a pressure gauge so I can see whats going on. I think I have trash in the carb, because this engine easily revved to 5500rpm while tuning it, and breaking it in. today before going out, I blipped it to 5000rpm doing a last minute test before heading to the lake. It revved nicely. I stopped and put 50 gallons of fuel in it(93 octane) before putting it on the water. And thats when I had rpm issues. I think I may have stirred up some debris in the tank while fueling, and either it messed my pump up, or clogged the carb, or both.

Anyone else have a problem with a Holley Red Marine pump and issues supplying fuel? I know electric pumps push better than they pull, but I know I'm not the only one using this pump and drawing fuel from the pickup on top the tank.

Damn man...you are one stubborn SOB...I'll give you that.

I had a similar problem on my starboard engine last year. I put a re-built Q-Jet from National Carburetor in Jacksonville on it and it ran like a raped ape.

I vote for carburetor.

If you think it's a tank issue, rig a temporary 5 gallon Jerry can with a suction hose to the pump and try it...but I think it's the carburetor.

I'll take that as a compliment! (I am a hard headed SOB! ;) ) LOL

Yeah, I'm thinkin carb issue too. This is a new refurb, that I purchased from National Carbs. They expoxied a few of the top cover screws to prevent tinkering on it, but I'll get in there. I noticed last night that the primary flow looked weak, so its prob debris in the jets. Ahh, it felt like a completely different boat night light leaving the launch. Steering is so much tighter and responsive with the new gimbal assembly. And those brief few seconds of giving it throttle till the carb clogged up was oh so satisfying!!

Tore the carb down, yep! It had some tank sludge in it. Gave it a good cleaning, reassembled, installed on boat and back in service.

Got home a bit ago from another test and tune, and the results are:

Have to replace the inline filter every 45mins to hour as it is catching a lot of tank sludge. (good thing I brought 3 spares with me)

Ran like a champ mostly, no issues outside of tank sludge being in filter. If that doesnt clear after after another trip or 2, may have to pull the tank for a thorough cleaning.

Been running it with a 14.5x19 pitch, and got 54.6 mph/GPS @5400rpm.(may have had more rpm to go, didnt turn it any harder than that)
After a bit of running, swapped to my 14 x23p, and dropped to 46.7 @4200rpm. seems odd, I should have enough engine to pull the 23p at 4800to5000 rpm. I think I will get a calibration kit, and do some tuning. Its a stock 750 marine carb, and I'm thinking I may need some more fuel. running 33 degrees timing, distributor is locked out.

That's great news!!!

I think the right 21" may be the prop you need...maybe a Bravo 21".

Is this with the 302 in it? I doubt you will be able to spin a 23. I am stinning 23's on my 311 with 420hp per side. The RPM's you are getting with the 19 is about correct. Try a 21 but my guess is you will be back to a 19. How much trim did you run with the 23?

@Sprink- yeah, I think the 21 will be the way to go also. If I woulda have brought a torx set with me, I could have pulled the carb on the water from the get go, and not tried all those other "fixes". A lil more info on the "bravo" prop, vs, perhaps a Mirage or mirage + ?

@Audiofn- I played with the trim a lot with the 23, 47@4200rpm was the best I could pull

Im running a slightly warmed over 454:
Gen V454 forged internals and square port heads
Gen 6 502 425hp Merc roller cam installed on a 106icl(cam is ground on a 109 icl)
Cam Dynamics full roller rockers
Merc Aluminum dual plane intake with center divider milled out
Msd Distributor and box
750 Edelbrock carb
GLM manifolds

I could have turned it harder with the 19p,but backed off. I've been told that with the bottom end, and valve springs, I could turn this engine 6k rpm all day without any ill effects. I'd rather keep it closer to 5k rpm.

I've found a 21p aluminum that I can borrow for the next test session, and if it performs well, think I will try to locate a 21p Mirage plus Stainless and see if that will be my final prop choice

23 alluminum would be closer go ghd 21 mirage.

I hear you on the 6000 RPM...tell you the truth though, I think the drive would go before a strong well balanced BBC.

I don't run my equipment like that...unless some bad a$$ with bigger guns than mine is chasing me!!:evilb:

Sprink- Yeah< I don't want to run it that hard either, especially since its a Alpha drive. I'm really hoping the 21p will be the ticket. On a side note, my Stainless 23p, is originally marked as a mercruiser21p. And then right besdie that, is a hand stamped '23p'. maybe somebody repitched it? or screwed it up? who knows. gona try this known 21p, and see what happens I guess.

Boat is still dirty, but heres a small clip of it idling:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video....51864424240057